I am not a historian so cannot comment on the personality of Jinnah. For all I know he was from a religion respected family. He firmly believed in a separate state for MUSLIMS … does that translate as secular state for you !…
Ghost Of TK Says:
December 25th, 2008 at 6:36 pm
@dm: the arguments you present leave a lot to be desired in terms of supporting your thesis. Please take a look at the August 11 address by Jinnah.
You yourself claim that you have NO IDEA on the background of Jinnah or his life from a historical perspective, yet you are sure that he wanted a theocracy. Or at least a ‘non-secular’ govt. whatever that means.
your sense of history seems to be derived from Jamaat Islami pamphlets. I would would get ‘a second opinion’ when dealing with the beardo’s who have been the ever present mark of shame for Pakistan, and presided over EVERY SINGLE DISASTER that Pakistan faced (with their precipitative help).
December 25th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Jamati Islami was against the creation of Pakistan… who denies that. I don’t trust “Jamats” that are part of the current political process.
The point I am raising is that millions of muslims didn’t vote for a secular state… because Pakistan at that time was not projected as a secular state. Even if you prove to me that Qaid’s philosophy was secular… it maybe… but in 1945’s elections muslims voted for a muslim state.
Also I didn’t say I have NO IDEA about Jinnah’s history… I have read enough but have not set my mind on “Jamat-e-islami” thinking or “liberal secular” thinking. I try not to see stuff in black and white… You cannot brand people in just two groups. Jinnah like any other human being was a complex man
Coming back to my point again…. even if the leadership of Pakistan was not making it to be a muslim state…. the original philosophy (Iqbals ?) and the way masses precieved it was very much along the lines of “we want to create this state so we can practice our religion and have our own identity “…. The question I ask is why was Pakistan needed if Islam was not a factor.
BTW I have read ur explaination of the term “beardo”. I agree with the general philosophy but the word makes me VERY queasy. Also it gives the impression that you somehow brand all Ulemas as holders of this mentality. Which is narrow mindedness.
Who would you consider not a “beardo” and still an Islamic scholar… give example from anywhere in muslim world.
Traffic Says: [this man “Traffic” is a bigoted sectarian activist, a supporter of the Taliban and a hater of Jinnah)
December 25th, 2008 at 11:27 pm
baboos’ only arguments are we fought america’s war in 80’s(but they are not agaisnt fighting america’s war right now), jinnah was a secularist, and education is panacea for all problems(forget everything else).
in 80’s baboos wanted us to lie down like a b*t*h so that communists could over-run us, and now baboos want us to help americans fight taliban. in other words baboos are always anti-state and anti-people.
who gives a f0ck what jinnah was or what he wanted, the majority of Muslims at the time sacrificed everything not for a secular state ruled by baboos but an Islamic state.
Ghost of TK Says:
December 25th, 2008 at 11:50 pm
@Traffic: “who gives a f0ck what jinnah was or what he wanted”
This pretty much sums up the beardo mentality. Who indeed. Maybe Jinnah himself who seems to contradict your hallucinations about Pakistan being an “Islamic” state. Islamic as defined by some arbitrary beardo.
You seem to assume a lot of things. At least I do not support the American presence in Afghanistan or Iraq or any fucking country including Pakistan. But that fact you conveniently ignore. Similarly, every people have a right to self defense, I supported that in the Soviet Invasion and I support that now. So, READ MY LIPS: Afghans have the right to resist foreign invaders, manipulators and intriguers and to evict them. This includes but is not limited to the so called “Internation Security Assistance Force”
That doesn’t mean that I support a free for all on Pakistani territory. A free-for-all which includes running dumbass jihadi camps against every single neighbour of the State of Pakistan. Including China. What the fuck is wrong with the beardo’s. If they love the state and well-being of Pakistan so much, would they go so far as supporting the US/UK supported Uigher movement in china?
The fact is that they are numbnuts! And don’t understand what the hell they’re doing and that relates directly back to their abysmal ignorance of world affairs.
Like a bull in a bullfight, they only see the red-curtain of JEEHAAWD, and they Charge!
Now, is the way in which our venerable Army dealing with the FATA issue correct? NO! But these are the same dipshits who the beardo’s connived with and the same dipshits who created the proxy fighter forces to begin with.
Don’t blame the Nationalist Left for your retarded choices. You helped them every step of the way, and now they’re raping you. Well, enjoy the ass-shafting. Now you know how it feels hahaha!
And beardo’s have the nerve to call their opponent’s reasoning muddled and confused when it is they who on one hand condone the beheading of the Pakistani soldiers (THE symbols and last remaining piller of Pakistani STATE) in FATA, but they accuse others of “treachery” when others doubt the intentions of the very same army.
Consistency is not something that one should expect only from one’s opponents.
December 26th, 2008 at 12:54 am
who gives a f0ck what jinnah was or what he wanted,
Shame on you, thats all I have say.
December 26th, 2008 at 9:16 am
Pakistan was created for muslims not Islam.
Islam is universal truth doesn’t need a country.
bilal ekram Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 7:45 am
JINNAH IS OUR REAL QUAID.HE WAS THE GREAT LEADER OF OUR COUNTRY AT THIS TIME WE NEED A LEADER AS SAME AS JINNAH A MAN OF so many great qualities thanks QUAID
December 26th, 2008 at 6:25 am
May ALLAH bless you Mr Jinnah. I salute you . You were, are and will be a source of pride for the muslims of the subcontinent. I wish we can learn from you and build our nation as you had dreamt it to be, tolerant and progressive and an examplery true Islamic nation….Ameen
December 26th, 2008 at 6:47 pm
For those you are hell bent upon calling him Babaee Qaum, Bani e Pakistan, Pasban i millat, Hazrat, Quaid i Azam, alay rehmat…… Mohammad Ali Jinnah said in 1942 — “I have lived as plain Mr. Jinnah and I hope to die as plain Mr. Jinnah. I am very much averse to any title or honours and I will be more than happy if there was no prefix to my name.”
Ghost of TK Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 7:26 pm
@FJ: I’m just trying to shatter some preconceived notions that people may have about drinking, heroes, and just trying to point out that one has to look at a person as a whole as opposed to applying a cliched Javed Choodhry’ish checklist to assess a person’s worth.
Don’t shoot the messenger. That’s all I’m saying.
The point is, drinking, or even being such an avid drinker that a person can’t recognize the Prophet himself sometimes doesn’t make someone a “bad person”.
A conclusion that the “children of Zia” hurriedly jump to at the mention of “Khumr”.
Remember, this hadith is around the end of Badr and before Uhud. The transmission for proscribing drinking did not come until AFTER Uhud the battle in which incidentally, Hazrat Hamza, The Lion of Islam, embraced Shahadah.
I’m not saying there is a connection between the two events. I’m just saying that one cannot evaluate someone’s worth by these pygmy yardsticks. Jinnah created Pakistan (with a lot of help and goading and manipulation from the British) Maybe he had a few personal vices, and so what, “Sharab peeta tha? kab peeta tha? kaisay peeta tha? botal say muNh laga kay to phir bhi naheen peeta thaa” …
these are the kind of attitudes that lead to …
“HaaN haaN peetaa thaa, ghareebooN kaa khooN to naheeN peetaa thaa!”
“Ganjay kay sar pay hal chalay gaa!”
“chalo chalo afghanistan chalo!”
“Jihad-e-Afghanistan kay liyay chaNda!”
“Chalo Chalo Kashmir Chalo!!!”
“Al-Arz-u-Lillah! Delhi peh JhanDaa lehraiNgay”
“Pehlay to ham mujahid thay! ab kiyooN terrist ban gai?”
KiyooN Indeed! 😉
And Muhammad(s) said, “momin ek soorakh say do baar naheeN Dasaa jaataa”
December 26th, 2008 at 7:58 pm
you are the one who objects the most when someone quotes a Quranic ayah or hadith. now why are YOU quoting them? another hypocricy of the baboo brigade.
Ghost Of TK Says:
December 26th, 2008 at 8:05 pm
@Traffic: OMG! You must be an indian sympathizer! How can you be against Islam and the Ahadith of The Prophet peace and blessings be upon him!!! ???
Why shouldn’t I quote Ahadith? Do you have sole monopoly on Islam? We don’t even know if you are Muslim enough! You haven’t proven your Islam.
P.S. I wasn’t losing an argument and did not quote to win it by trying to shut my opponent up!
La Hole Wala Quvvat Illa Billa
Now, go and wear your armour and your JJ (jihadi-jacket)… Don’t you have to go blow yourself up under an advancing Sukhoi aircraft to defend “Islam ka Qilla” ???? If you’re really a “True Muslim” that is.
December 27th, 2008 at 1:48 am
May Allah bless his soul, and keep Pakistan safe, ameen.
It is so painful to find that some midgets dare to speak against the giant, our beloved Quaid. Please leave him alone!
For those who would like to read the following famous books on line, the links are:
1. My Brother by Fatima Jinnah
2. Jinnah, Creator of Pakistan by Hector Bolthio