Original Articles

A humble request to Mustafa Qadri (Amnesty) and Ali Dayan Hasan (HRW) – by Laibaah

Cross-posted from Pakistan Blogzine

Related postsAppeal to HRW, Amnesty, HRCP: Don’t ignore or misrepresent Shia genocide in Pakistan

Laibaah, the liberal fascist, must refrain from attacking human rights defenders

Resources on Shia genocide in Pakistan

SOS from Hazara Shias of Quetta

SOS from Toori Shias of Parachinar

SOS from Saraiki Shias of D.I.Khan

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Mustafa Qadri and Ali Dayan Hasan are two highly respected gentlemen because of their services to human rights in Pakistan. Mr. Qadri works for Amnesty International while Mr. Hasan works for Human Rights Watch.

5 Questions

It is my earnest request and hope that Mr. Qadri, Mr. Hasan and other respectable officials of HRW and Amnesty will patiently and sympathetically read this post and provide an answer to the following five questions to the satisfaction of not only Pakistani Shias but also of all human rights and peace loving Pakistanis.

1. With respect, I wish to request these two gentlemen and their respective organizations to kindly clarify their position on the systematic, institutional and ongoing mass murder of Shia Muslims in Pakistan.

2. Definitional issues: Can the systematic, institutional and on going mass murder of Shia Muslims in Pakistan by the TTP, SSP-LeJ, JeM and other militants (some of which are known jihadi proxies of Pakistan’s military establishment) be categorized as genocide? Under which definition or criteria, it may or may not be classified as genocide? What is the appropriate term to describe the ongoing mass murder (if not genocide) of Shia Muslims in Pakistan?

3. Apart from the definitional issues, when was the last time HRW and Amnesty published detailed data on Shia genocide in Pakistan e.g., in Parachinar, Dera Ismail Khan, Quetta etc?

4. What is stopping HRW and Amnesty to record and publish current data on Shia genocide in Pakistan? On what basis do these organisations set their priorities?

5. Can we expect detailed reports by HRW and Amnesty on mass murders of Shias in Parachinar, Quetta, Dera Ismail Khan etc in the near future? Approximately when?

I really hope that an answer by these gentlemen will enhance communication, transparency and an environment of trust between Amnesty/HRW and Pakistani human rights activists.

About the author

SK

41 Comments

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  • Conversation with Mustafa Qadri

    shero1985 Sheryar Mehmood
    RT @Laibaah @Mustafa_Qadri We condemn sectarian rants by @cpyala against a mass murdered community. Cafe Jhangvi: http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2011/09/09/cafe-pyala-or-cafe-jhangvi/

    Mustafa_Qadri Mustafa Qadri
    @shero1985 @Laibaah @cpyala ok remember that ignorance in law is no defence killing of Shia serious crime but genocide has strict definition

    Mustafa_Qadri Mustafa Qadri
    @shero1985 @Laibaah @cpyala the more loosely word genocide used the less value it has. Think before you get passionate.

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @Mustafa_Qadri Can you plz provide a “strict definition” of genocide, and how Shia massacre does not qualify that? @shero1985 @cpyala

    Mustafa_Qadri Mustafa Qadri
    @Laibaah @shero1985 @cpyala read the genocide convention brother, you have an internet connection

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @Mustafa_Qadri @shero1985 @cpyala http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention/text.htm read article II, and a & c. Why doesn’t it apply to Shias of Pakistan? Pray tell.

    shero1985 Sheryar Mehmood
    @mustafa_qadri Sir after going through the articles I cant see how this is not a genocide. Can u explain to us y it isn’t? @cpyala @Laibaah

    shero1985 Sheryar Mehmood
    @Laibaah @Mustafa_Qadri @cpyala Article 2 very explicitly defines the genocide, and I guess the Shias killing totally fits that definition.

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @Mustafa_Qadri I hope you will explain why Shia massacre in Pakistan does not fit the genocide def. article II, a,b,c @shero1985 @cpyala

    shero1985 Sheryar Mehmood
    @Laibaah @Mustafa_Qadri @cpyala and I think the free hand given to haters like Malik Ishaq is a total proof of state patronage to these killings.

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @shero1985 @Mustafa_Qadri @cpyala Also the fact that, sadly, Shia genocide remains ignored by human rights org. http://www.petitiononline.com/PakBlogz/petition.html

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @shero1985 @Mustafa_Qadri @cpyala Pakistan is the only country where a mass murdered community is complaining against human rights orgstions

    Mustafa_Qadri Mustafa Qadri
    @Laibaah @shero1985 actually that’s not true in virtually every country ppl complain human rights orgs don’t care for them

    Mustafa_Qadri Mustafa Qadri
    @shero1985 @Laibaah on it’s face it seems to but remember each word in Art has legal meaning if you look closely not so clear

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @Mustafa_Qadri Sir, this is exactly what we want to learn. What is exact legal definition of genocide that does not apply here? @shero1985

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @Mustafa_Qadri Also what is stopping @hrw, @amnesty etc to document and publish data on Shia mass murder (if not genocide)? @shero1985

    Conversation with Ali Dayan Hasan

    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah Shias are being targeted, killed, discriminated against widely. True. But “genocide” is a big word – overused and misused.

    @yasmeen_9 is making defensive argument ignoring reality of pervasive sectarian prejudice. But @Laibaah please do not misuse term “genocide”

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan Sir, Shia genocide is not taking place in Pakistan? Is that a fig of my imagination? http://criticalppp.com/archives/tag/shia-genocide

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan Genocide: “the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, religious or national group” (Wiki), These are definitional issues which we can debate. Call it mass murder or whatever, but please publish data and highlight it.

    smhaider smhaider
    @AliDayan @Laibaah Mr Ali i would like to refer you to 1948 UN Convention CPPCG Article 2 wch defines genocide as act commtted with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. So.. aint it genocide

    MirSohaib
    @AliDayan Its genocide according to definitions @laibaah

    MirSohaib Mir Sohaib Mengal
    @AliDayan The Genocide Convention of 1948, to which Pakistan has been a party since 1957, applies to killings of or causing serious mental or physical harm to, members of a racial or religious group as such, with intent to destroy that group in whole or in part.

    An Appeal to HRW, Amnesty, HRCP etc

    mSaleemJaved Saleem Javed
    Appeal to @hrw , @Amnesty, HRCP : Don’t ignore or misrepresent silent Shia Hazara genocide in #Pakistan

    http://pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/a-humble-request-to-mustafa-qadri-amnesty-and-ali-dayan-hasan-hrw/

  • Mr. Ali Dayan Hasan’s response:

    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah @CChristineFair @mazdaki @KamranShafi46 @AbdulNishapuri @Mustafa_Qadri Thanks. @HRW does not respond to blogposts.
    mazdaki Mohammad Taqi
    Friends,give @AliDayan actionable info/paper-trail etc 2 document plz @laibaah @cchristinefair @kamranshafi46 @abdulnishapuri @mustafa_qadri
    7 hours ago
    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah @HRW doesn’t respond to blogposts or anonymous, unidentifiable bloggers . That is NOT how credible HR positions are formulated.
    7 hours ago Favorite Retweet Reply
    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah As you live in the US please seek a meeting with @HRW, identify yourself and pass on solid evidence of abuses you might have.
    7 hours ago
    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah @HRW formulates policy positions after exhaustive research & not based on opinions of anonymous bloggers no matter how sincere
    7 hours ago

    ———–

    Laibah’s response
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @mazdaki Shia killings (1 Jan-20 Feb 2009) http://www.petitiononline.com/ShiaSOS/petition.html @AliDayan @cchristinefair @kamranshafi46 @abdulnishapuri @mustafa_qadri
    16 minutes ago
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @mazdaki SOS for Shias of D.I.Khan http://criticalppp.com/archives/995 @AliDayan @cchristinefair @kamranshafi46 @abdulnishapuri @mustafa_qadri
    15 minutes ago
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @mazdaki Shia massacre in Parchinar http://criticalppp.com/archives/tag/parachinar @AliDayan @cchristinefair @kamranshafi46 @abdulnishapuri @mustafa_qadri
    10 minutes ago
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @mazdaki SOS from Hazara Shias of Quetta: http://criticalppp.com/archives/tag/hazara @AliDayan @cchristinefair @kamranshafi46 @abdulnishapuri @mustafa_qadri
    8 minutes ago
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan I have sent u some links based on bloggers research. @CChristineFair @mazdaki @KamranShafi46 @AbdulNishapuri @Mustafa_Qadri @HRW
    6 minutes ago
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan Given SSS’s murder by ISI, safety is an imp. concern. @CChristineFair @mazdaki @KamranShafi46 @AbdulNishapuri @Mustafa_Qadri @HRW
    3 minutes ago Favorite Reply Delete
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan More than 500 signs here: http://www.petitiononline.com/PakBlogz/petition.html @CChristineFair @mazdaki @KamranShafi46 @AbdulNishapuri @Mustafa_Qadri @HRW
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan @hrw I don’t have any further resources than what I sent you already.
    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan Shias of Pakistan have lost hope. munhasir marnay pe ho jis ki umeed/na umeedi us ki dekha chahiye (Ghalib) @mazdaki

    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    @Laibaah Pleaee answer a simple question: Why can you not identify yourself to @hrw instead of seeking to malign orgs?

    Laibaah Laiba Ahmad Marri
    @AliDayan 1. I am helping, not maligning @hrw. 2. Plz email or DM me their contact, I will speak to them. Thanks.

  • This is false propaganda against Pakistan by hired hands. Shias are at important positions in Pakistan including President and Prime Minister.

  • Looking at responses by both gentlemen (Mostafa Qadri and Ali Dayan) in comments 1 and 2, there is not much hope!

  • This is an abusive, defamatory post against Mustafa and Ali.

    Go and search HRW and Amnesty archives. They have published several reports on target killings of Shias in the last three years. I have myself read their detailed data on Kurram and Bhakkar / D.I.Khan etc.

  • aik botal ki maar hain Dayan Hasan.

    I heard PPP govt is paying this website a lot, why don’t you buy a drink for Dayan Hasan sahab 😉

  • A very brief snapshot which tells a lot!

    An account of recent Shia killings in Pakistan (from 1 Jan to 20 Feb 2009)

    Note: This is only a brief glimpse of systematic and continuous killings of Shia in Pakistan in the last few weeks. For a detailed account of the Shia genocide in the last many years in Pakistan, visit: http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/home.asp

    1. On 20 February 2009, a suicide bomber killed at least 32 Shias and injured another 157 who were attending the funeral of an already murdered Shia leader in the southern district of D.I. Khan (Dera Ismail Khan) in the NWFP. Previously on 21 November 2008, 6 Shia were killed and 25 more received severe injuries when a powerful bomb ripped through the funeral procession of a slain Shia leader who was shot the previous night.

    2. On 19 February 2009, six Shia were killed in Parachinar when Taliban terrorists opened indiscriminate fire on them at mid-day. They had gone to collect wood from local forest. It may be noted that the Shia are under siege in Parachinar for the past many years. The massacres of hundreds of Shias in Kurram Agency in 2007 and 2008 saw regular trickles of Shias migration. (Over the years, cities like Thal, Hangu and Kohat have developed significant pockets of migrant Shia population. All this area is also the target of the Afghan refugees who have leaked out of the Afghan refugee camps and don’t plan on going home because becoming a part of the Al Qaeda fighting machine is more lucrative. They take the identity of Taliban and do a lot of Shia-killing on the side. An informally named ghetto, Shiagarh, is an obvious target, located just 10 miles from Kohat going to the city of Hangu.)

    3. On 19 February 2009, a Shia man, Qurban Ali, was killed and another Sabir sustained injuries when terrorists opened fire on their van in the Gilgit area.

    4. On 10 February 2009, Mualana Syed Shabeer Hussain Shah was killed near Qureshi Maur; he was a prayer leader at Masjid-e-Kotla-Qaim Shah in D.I. Khan. He was 45 years old.

    5. On 9 February 2009, Sardar Ali Baba, 45, was killed in Peshawar. He was the bread-winner of the family and used to run medicines’ business. He is survived by four mourning children.

    6. On 5 February 2009, at least 35 Shia were killed and more than 50 injured in a suicide attack on a Shia gathering in D.G. Khan.

    7. On 3 February 2009, Syed Iqbal Haider Zaidi was killed when terrorists attacked him near Dabal Road, Quetta. He worked in a Wood factory to earn livelihood.

    8. On 2 February 2009, Syed Munawar Kazmi of Shia Dialogue Committee was shot in D.I. Khan.

    9. On 27 January 2009, Syed Ather Shah was killed by terrorists on Dial Road outside of his home in D.I. Khan. Syed aged 40 years was the caretaker of Imambargah Faqir Shah Muhallah Totaan Walla. Previously on 18 January, another Shia, Ali Abbas was killed in the same city.

    10. On 26 January 2009, Hussain Ali Yousufi president of Hazara Democratic Party was killed in firing by terrorist in today morning at Jinnah Road Quetta. The killing of Shia notables in Quetta, particularly those belonging to Hazara community, has sadly become a frequent occurrence. Some of the killings have been owned by Lashkar-e-Jhangavi, a sister organization of Pakistani Taliban. The number of the Shia community members killed there over the recent years has exceeded 300. Besides religious figures, liberal politicians, businessmen and government officials have been targeted.

    11. On 14 January 2009, 3 Shia Police officials named DSP Hassan Ali, Mohammad Baqir and Sifwatullah were killed in Quetta, four were injured. They were going to Police Training Centre Quetta at Saryab Road at 10: 30 AM (PST) when terrorists sprayed fires upon them. All killed and two of injured belong from Shia Community. Four days ago president of Shia Conference was also targeted in Sibi (Baluchistan). On 8th June 2003 12 Shia cadets were also killed on Sariab Road Quetta.

    12. On January 2009 in Hangu,17 Shia Muslims were killed and more than 35 injured. Taliban terrorists attacked with heavy weapons on Shia populated areas of Hungo City like; Ali Abad town, Muhallah Ganjanokalay, Muhallah Sangerh and Muhallah Paskaley.

    13. On 10 Jan 2009, 4 Shia were killed and another 10 are injured when Taliban attacked the Shia converged for Ashura Procession in Hangu

    http://www.petitiononline.com/ShiaSOS/petition.html

  • Apparently both gentlemen are deflecting the issue at hand. One is resorting to ad hominem (focusing on the identity of the blogger asking these questions), while other is focusing on legalities of the definition.

    None has been able to provide a satisfactory answer to why HRW and Amnest have done NOTHING to record and publish data or highlight Shia genocide to Pakistani and international audience?

    Why are they behaving in such a strange manner?

  • Ali Dayan never sounded like a human rights activist.

    Even as an editor in Herald, he hardly covered stories on Shia genocide by General Zia and his successors.

    He is with HRW since 2003 and ever since there is a complete block on coverage of Shia genocide in Pakistan.

    He never mentions why Shia genocide is ignored in Pakistani media because as a Jeem (journalist) he used to be par of the Teen Jeem mafia.

    I don’t have much knowledge about the other chap, Mustafa Qadri. Is he any better?

  • Guys, I am not a Shia but I wholeheartedly support this cause. It is a cause of all Pakistanis irrespective of our sect, religion, ethnicity etc.

    I suggest we organize a sit in or hunger strike in front of the Islamabad Press Club against the silence of Amnesty, HRW etc.

    We will issue press release, speak to journalists, take pictures etc.

    Our activism can wake up some sleeping souls.

    I will be very happy to participate. Please announce a date and time.

    Ahsan Faoorqui
    MSc Student QAU

  • I think the issue raised by the article is very valid but unfortunately it get “lost in translation” because of the techinical details. It is true that in journalistic literature people will use terms like “genocide” to describe attrocities against shia , Ahmedi muslims and Balochs , that is not forbidden, it conveys the message but in international law the term has strict meaning and its not very lear unfortunately. This confusion has led to loss of life. In 90s US and UN were reluctant to classify the attrocities in Rawanda as “Genocide” doing so would make intervention necessary. No one intervined and “slaughter of dogs” continued.
    Later Clinton expressed “regret”. Due to legal reasons organizations like HRW and Amenysty will not use the term “genocide” for Balochs and Shia. Though i think it in a form of it. But unfortunately we dont have a clear defined name for it.
    I think it will be better to highlight the issue without going in techical debates as than it will go no where.
    For something to be done on this we need
    1. Data that how many shia have been targetted and killed where n when, demographic pattern and what has been the legal response.
    2. For karachia the data might be convincing for target killing of Shia professionals esp doctors and in Quetta where police recruits from Hazara and imp members of community have been targetted.
    3 For case of DI khan we neede data on internal deisplacement of Shia population and the level of attrocities in clear statistical terms, this data could build a case for “mass attrocities”
    4. We need data to show discrimination? that means is the pattern different for murdered shias and sunnis in terms of prosecution of the alleged culprits?

    unless this work is done no Organization will use these terms or others because they become liable.
    Its important to understand this issue. We are doing advocasy, but if we want to actively challange people than i am afraid we need a small NGO which can do this research and when we have a vaild data we can start fighting!
    Before that , it will be more helpful to do advocasy with these organization encouraging them to start collecting data on religiogly motivated violence in Pakistan. Confrontation may not help the shia cause.
    As you can see these organization dont use genocide for baloch or Ahmedis murders as well, which are in worse position.

    In the meanwhile it will be helpful to get some important intellectuals like Dr A Siddiqa , Dr Samina Ahmed etc to write initial review reports on sunjects like rise in anti shia sentiments in Pakistan as a separate subject differentiating it from wide blanket term “secterrian issue”. This can be done as at least DR Ahmed has wrote about rise of sunni militancy in Pakistan

  • Having said that i must also say that there is no legal herdle for these organizations to start collecting and publishing data on “target killing” of Shia populations and esp their professional class, i am absolutely sure that if such data is collected we will have a clear pattern statatistically that will show that indeed a planned activity is going on for past few decades to murder Shias in Islamic Republic
    As Human Rights Organization they should reply to concerns.
    Apart from these two gentlemen these organizations should be contacted and advocasy be done to start collecting data on target killing of minorities and minority sects in Pakistan, this will be more palatable to them.
    Its important to document Quetta and parachinal and DI khan, infact it must be done using any local NGO that have some resourses and it will be important to consult intellectuals for deciding the parameters and study design and we need a very good statitician

  • @Shaheryar, I think you are not fully informed about this issue. There are organizations that have collected this data such as Shaheed Foundation and others. There is mention in the comments. As for advocacy, this is what it is. That being said, it is a sad state affairs when HR representatives who are being paid to do this do not seem so moved. The genocide of the Hazaras has been systematic in both Pakistan and Afghanistan with the latter suffering some horrific instances of planned, systematic massacres and rapes of thousands at Mazar Sharif and Yawkelung province. In Pakistan, there are have been ongoing massacres especially after the Quetta Shura was allowed in 2001-2002.

  • Many Shia activists group can help in this regards, as an organisation of students from Parachinar is already active in protests against the siege and systematic killings of their community by the hands of Taliban of Haqqni group.

    Killings of Shia professionals in Karachi is continued since the last two decades. It was on a rise in the early days of Mush era and it still continues as the blanket term of ‘target killings’ has made it a normal practice along with other killings in Karachi for various motives.

    Ali Dayan reservations on the anonymity of applicants can be addressed by conveying the same request via organisations MBT and others have mentioned above.

  • Enormous support for this petition on Twitter:
    CChristineFair Christine Fair
    I encourage you all to sign this petition 2 appeal 2 HRW, Amnesty, HRCP on the slaughter of Shia in Pakistan. http://www.petitiononline.com/PakBlogz/petition.html
    2 hours ago

    CChristineFair Christine Fair
    @shah1936 @sarahnaq What a load of shit to use a technical term. Pak’s deobandi terrorists gone wild are doing this (JM, HUJI, LeJ/SSP).
    1 hour ago Favorite Undo Retweet Reply

    CChristineFair Christine Fair
    @sohaibtalal1 @BhaskarChat @dhume01 Where have you been. Shia and Ahmediyas have often been called “Wajib-ul-Qatal”, liable to be killed.
    1 hour ago

    BhaskarChat Bhaskar Chatterjee
    RT by CChristineFair@
    But there are growing section in Pakistan who think Shias are non Muslims. Jinnah was a Shia by the way:)- @dhume01 @CChristineFair
    2 hours ago

    mattaikins Matthieu Aikins
    This petition is right – most “sectarian violence” in Pakistan is simply a one-sided slaughter of Shia civilians. bit.ly/o0wnL1
    2 hours ago Favorite Undo Retweet Reply

    mattaikins Matthieu Aikins
    @CChristineFair Are there any good estimates out there on the number of victims of anti-Shia violence in Pakistan in the past decades?
    2 hours ago

    Most vehement criticism of the petition is being offered by none other than Ali Dayan Hasan. He is trying to deflect the issue on definitional or ad hominem grounds:

    AliDayan Ali Dayan Hasan
    Yes but does that make it genocide? RT @mattaikins: most “sectarian violence” in Pakistan is simply one-sided slaughter of Shia civilians.

    ——-

    abbasnasir59 Abbas Nasir
    @AliDayan if you look at Quetta Hazaras and Kurram tribes very definitely yes. It doesn’t have to reach millions dead to kick in.

    godfatheriv Über Rana
    @dhume01 @CChristineFair #Shia #Pakistan more than 5000 in the last 5 years is NOT genocide?, these stats r for hazars in quetta alone.

    FarriRizvi Farheen Rizvi
    call it anything..but it is human blood on the roads. bcoz of their identity/sect RT @AliDayan: Yes but doe… (cont) deck.ly/~OcxoO

    zameerabbasGB zameerabbas
    Not to mention what was done them in 1988 in Gilgit MT @abbasnasir59 @AliDayan if you look at Quetta Hazaras and Kurram tribes very definite

    mo2005 Mona
    @AliDayan @laibaah @hrw shouldnt the research and agenda be stemming from what concerns peoples

    Chiltan salma jafar
    @AliDayan @Laibaah @hrw can I budge in; manytimes blogs are a prompt for organizations like @hrw to probe further and to research

    skylark100AU1 Madeleine Kingston
    #Shia target killing in Pakistan| http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh96edqPB78&NR=1 No place denial #genocide #Shia #Hazaras

    theRealYLH Yasser Latif Hamdani
    RT @Laibaah: @itwittthere4iam I agree. There is hardly any hope from the silent spectators of the Shia genocide. @AbdulNishapuri @cpyala

    Abdul_Bugti Abdul Bugti
    Must Read: A brilliant post by @laibaah- A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan Hasan (HRW) bit.ly/qJ8DfB

    FreeAsiaBiBi FreeAsiaBiBi
    A humble request to Mustafa Qadri (Amnesty) and Ali Dayan Hasan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE /via @wordpressdotcom @FreeAsiaBiBi/free

    theRealYLH Yasser Latif Hamdani
    RT @paktea: RT @Laibaah: A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE

    abidifactor Syed Ali Raza Abidi
    A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE (via @Laibaah)

    MahdiBaloch Mahdi Baloch
    A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) pakistanblogzine.wordpress.com/2011/09/11/a-h… @Laibaah

    paktea pakteahouse
    RT @Laibaah: A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE

    tatom2k Tatom
    @Laibaah V. Valid question I wd jst add education is also required by reps. on this if v r lacking knowledge @Mustafa_Qadri @AliDayan

    atiqmangla Atique Mangla
    RT @Laibaah A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE

    shero1985 Sheryar Mehmood
    RT @Laibaah A humble request to @Mustafa_Qadri (Amnesty) and @AliDayan (HRW) wp.me/p1joLZ-9QE

    —-

    Razarumi Raza Rumi
    @AliDayan I am naming you as quaid e insaani haqooq and @Mustafa_Qadri as the Allama who dreams of a human-rights friendly state evy night!

  • Any debate on legal or technical definition of mass murder of Shias is nothing more than deflection. Same goes for the ad hominem interest in the petitioner’s real life identity. It is a sorry state of affairs!

    Genocide or no genocide, it is the HRW, Amnesty, HRCP who have not only expertise, resources and credibility but also responsibility to document data on the where, how, how many, context and aftermath of Shia killings.

    The five links posted by Sarah Khan at the start of the post offer plenty of resources (as a good start) on this topic.

    MBT has rightly referred to Shaheed Foundation which is a useful database of Shias target killings in the last several years. http://www.shaheedfoundation.org/

    Questions 3, 4 and 5 in the present post deserve an urgent response.

    Those who are being target killed have a right to know the answers. They are currently expressing their grievances through this public petition which has already seen about 600 signatures in the last few days.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/PakBlogz/petition.html

    Will you please pay attention, sirs?

  • Ali Dayan’s “reservations” are simply intellectual dishonesty. Its his JOB to do this and not the jobs of the aggrieved communities to do his work for him. These things have been going on for decades and Ali Dayan couldn’t spend a few hours on google and write a report about this and get the worlds attention on this. pathetic!

  • Maula Bux
    Its sad indeed! But i think you know this data will not do!
    Its very basic!.
    For example what is the relationship of this kind of murders which we say are targetting a sect to lets say murders in Karachi target killing. Is it different, same, more or less?
    what is the average rate at which a Shia in Pakistan is at risk of getting killed as compared to 1 A bloch, 2, A sunni in a taliban sponsered bomb blast, 3, An Ahmedi, 4, A political activist 5, a journalist investigating ISI in fata, A pashtoon in Karachi .

    It has to be demonstrated that there is a statistically significant chance for a Shia to be murderd than average Pakistani. Further quantification with other persecuted groups will be required as well.
    Its lot of work and it needs to be done.
    Shias are certainly being persecuted but the level of persecution is different in different regions, socio economic and political background
    Syed Mushaid Hussain , Nasim Zahra , Syed Talat Hussain etc are at no loss despite being Shia . Nor does a an Urban Shia in Karachi when it comes to employment oppertunity.
    The president of the country is Shia and Prime minister though a Sunni has a Tazia in Multan and a very mix family. But a Hazara Shia and a Shia in Parachinar is living in hell.
    Its not as simple as it sounds and nor is as uniform as many would think.

  • I agree with Abdul that these organizations have the capability or they should have and also that techical issue do serve as deflection as i said in case of Rawanda millions of people died but it was not termed as genocide on time. It was done later with regret but the regret could not bring those killed back!
    But unfortunately the questions keep referring to these techical details , 1st one is about definition, If United Nation couldnt find definition for Rawanda Genocide on time or still we face difficulty in case of Bangali genocide, i dont think Ali Hassan Dayan will be able to.

    other questions keep referring to genocide/mass murders / systematic killing
    So if you note that these themselves are providing fodder for the “deflection”
    Thats why i said in my earlir comment that the message gets lost in translation of a sort ( the debate will start on legal technicalities and real point gets lost)

  • After Kerbala , a severe persecution of those sympathetic to House of Muhammed started. People we killed or tortured so showing respect to family of prophet, it is big lesson. One son of Ali Zain-ul-aabideen, Zaid could not take it any longer and rose in rebellion, the other Muhammed Al Baqir refused to do so. He was accused of not following Hussain. Being silent, quiet , indifferent, But all other imams after him followed.
    In the rebellion of Hussain is followed by Quietist resistance of 10 imams. It was this quitism of Al Baqir that led to existance of Shias or they would have been wiped out. Those whose zeal couldnt restain them were martyred Nasas uz Zakkiiya, Zaid and others. People called them Imams fought with them, even Al Malik and Abu Hanifa supported them. At that time the wise quite people Ali , Muhammed and Jafar looked quite out of touch and too soft on tyrants but in the final analysis it was the policy of these 3 which helped the cause!

  • @Sherry, By highlighting the currently ignored or misrepresented mass murder of Shia Muslims (as well as Balochs, Pashtuns, Ahmadis etc) we are following the path of Zainab. By remaining non-violent, by resorting to pen and paper, and by upholding ethical values and truth despite various pressures, we are clearly demonstrating what our path is and who our ideals are.

    Those who are deflecting the core issue through technical and ad hominem arguments remind me of Qazi Shureh.

    Or they remind me of an anecdote when a Kufi (or a Syrian) asked Imam Zain-ul-Aabideen about the minimal quantity of water needed for ablution. Imam replied (paraphrased): “you looked the other way while grandson of the Prophet was being slaughtered and now you dwell into the technical details of ablution?”

  • @Sherry,

    Let’s try it out. What term other than genocide do you suggest should we use, which might persuade HRW, Amensty etc to pay attention to the suffering of Pakistani Shias.

  • HRW

    http://www.hrw.org/node/75138#15

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    @kenroth @carrollbogert @EmmaDaly Plz don’t ignore silent Shia genocide in Pakistan bit.ly/oYrJ07 and bit.ly/pSGk4E

    http://www.hrw.org/node/75139

  • Abdul, its not the matter of my liking. The term to use! What i am trying to say is that this post itself is raising these techinical issues! and its more pesonality specfic than issue. Its questioning two persons , it will be seen in that light
    That is and was my only concern. I am not the one who questions the attrocitis against shia.
    But i dont agree with this kind of advocacy

    thanks for your patience

  • How to do a poor interview – by Raza Rumi. No questions on Pakistan’s most target killed faith group (Shia), most persecuted group (Ahmadi)

    Link to a poor interview by Raza Rumi: hrw.org/news/2012/02/0… Wipes out Pakistan’s major human rights issues! Sad!

    How can anyone talk about state of human rights in Pakistan in 2011 & completely wipe out the most target killed faith group? Wah, liberal!

    When you talk about the silence and misrepresentation of genocides of Baloch and Shia in Pakistan’s media, you must look at yourself too!

    Previously we saw a blogger concerned about silence of Pakistani society on human rights violations while herself wiping out Shia genocide.

    You don’t have the right to keep misrepresenting Shia massacres in Pakistan: A comment on HRCP 2010 Report
    Dear liberals: Perhaps one article per dead Shia will be too much for you. Can you plz write an article after every 20 Shias target killed?

    atifahmads Atif S Ahmad
    RT @Laibaah1 Link to a poor interview by Raza Rumi: hrw.org/news/2012/02/0… Wipes out Pakistan’s major human rights issues! Sad! #Ahmadis #Shia
    ………

    Interview with Ali Dayan Hasan
    ‘The historical strategy of transfering power without authority to civilians is no longer tenable’
    by Raza Rumi

    Published in: The Friday Times
    FEBRUARY 3, 2012

    Ali Dayan Hasan
    RELATED MATERIALS:
    World Report 2012: Pakistan
    Pakistan: Rights Suffer Under Army Power Grab
    HRW’s annual report for 2011 has given a scathing account of the state of human rights? How would you compare it to the 2010 and 2009 reports?
    2011 was a particularly bad year even by Pakistan’s standards and saw a spike in abuses and expanding impunity for abusers. Persecution and discrimination under cover of law against religious minorities and other vulnerable groups reached a zenith and freedom of belief and expression came under severe threat. The government utterly failed to provide protection to people threatened by extremists or hold the extremists accountable. Some 800 politically-motivated killings took place in Karachi. Balochistan suffered at the hands of intelligence agencies and the FC as targeted killings of Baloch nationalists became routine and disappearances continued. Militants retaliated in the province by murdering non-Baloch. Taliban and Al Qaeda terror attacks continued. Sindh saw massive flooding for the second year running displacing some 700,000 people. And we saw a push-back from the military, which effectively wrested control of foreign and national security policy from elected institutions creating real fears of a derailing of the constitutional process altogether.
    However, last year also saw a marginal decline in suicide bombings by the Taliban. Parliament, which has had an excellent legislative record throughout its tenure, enacted some exceptional laws to protect women. But it is equally true that these gains were overshadowed by the traumatic events and setbacks outlined above. The fact is that towards the end of the year, it even appeared that attempts to undermine the democratic transition altogether were close to success.
    Are you suggesting that the elected government is not “in power”?
    I think that would be an overstatement. And this is a work in progress. In a transitional democracy, it is essential that constitutional rule and due process of law be protected above all as human rights protections flow from that. And in that limited but critical area, the government has had some success, other failures notwithstanding. But it would be accurate to say that the military has yet to fully come to terms with the fact that its historical strategy of transferring power without authority to civilians is no longer tenable.
    However, just because the constitutional and political system survived the setbacks of 2011 should not be confused with the reality that it was in very grave danger. The sorry fact is that the government’s control over the military and intelligence agencies is largely notional. In Balochistan and KP, where the greatest abuses are taking place, civilian authorities exercise virtually no control over security policy. So the answer actually is more democracy not less, more accountability for the military and intelligence agencies not less.
    The recent report released by the judicial commission to investigate the murder of Saleem Shahzad has also been criticised by HRW. Some view HRW’s verdict as a bit too harsh given that the commission faced the intractable problem of receiving insufficient evidence?
    It is not clear that the commission even sought to look for evidence. The commissions’ findings are counter-intuitive at best. Saleem Shahzad had made it clear to HRW that should he be killed, the ISI should be considered the principal suspect. He had not indicated he was afraid of being killed by militant groups or anybody else as suggested by the commission. At great personal risk, witnesses presented themselves before the commission to offer accounts of ISI and military involvement in human rights abuses. The commission repaid this courage by muddying the waters and suggesting that just about anyone could have killed Shahzad. The commission even found it appropriate to recommend that the “press be made more law-abiding and accountable through the strengthening of institutions mandated by law to deal with legitimate grievances against it.” It is perverse to use an investigation into the killing of a journalist as a way of limiting press freedom. The commission shied away in confronting the ISI over Shahzad’s death and its failure to get to the bottom of Saleem Shahzad’s killing illustrates the ability of the ISI to remain beyond the reach of Pakistan’s criminal justice system.
    Are you saying that Pakistan’s courts are not exercising their authority effectively to enforce fundamental rights? They have recently given very strict orders to produce the missing persons before them?
    We are encouraged by and welcome the Supreme Court’s belated efforts to trace missing persons and hold the agencies generally and the ISI specifically to account for numerous serious allegations of torture, abuse, disappearances and killings against it. But sustainability is key to success. And the fact is that to date, three years after the restitution of the independent judiciary, no ISI or military personnel have been held accountable for multiple allegations of heinous abuse against them. The day the courts actually hold military and intelligence personnel accountable, it will send a powerful message that impunity for abuses will no longer be tolerated. HRW and all human rights defenders look forward to that day.
    Some quarters have criticised HRW’s stance towards Pakistani courts calling it excessive and perhaps unwarranted? Do international organisations have the mandate to question national courts?
    Rights-respecting rule of law is impossible in the absence of an independent judiciary. HRW advocated and lobbied, internationally and in Pakistan, for this, and welcomed the restoration of independent judges. Now that judicial independence has been achieved, it is our view that judicial conduct has to be scrutinized thoroughly, and the judiciary has to be held to the highest standard. Chief Justice Iftikhar Chaudhry knows and acknowledges the role HRW and other international groups have played in the struggle for his restitution to office and the emergence of an independent judiciary in Pakistan. All man-made institutions are fallible and subject to human error. This is particularly true of transitional institutions of which Pakistan’s emerging independent judiciary is but one. Only those who support human rights abuse and abusers, who hanker after a return to dictatorship and seek to see the independence of the judiciary curtailed or tailored to specific anti-rights agendas would oppose such scrutiny.
    And of course it is HRW’s mandate to raise its voice against abuse, lack of due process or institutional over-reach that may result in injustice by any quarter anywhere in the world and we will not hesitate to do so. Certainly, scurrilous campaigns are not going to deter us.
    Does HRW agree that drone strikes violate Pakistan’s sovereignty and violate people’s rights?
    The sovereignty argument is problematic as Pakistan’s military, regardless of its public posturing, has been complicit in the drone strikes. But, we consider the business of CIA drone strikes an issue that raises serious human rights concerns. Last year, the US carried out about 75 aerial drone strikes which resulted in claims of large numbers of civilian casualties. Lack of access to the conflict areas has prevented independent verification and HRW has repeatedly called on the Pakistani military which controls access to the conflict zone to provide the same. Little is known about who is killed in CIA drone strikes in Pakistan and under what circumstances. HRW has stated categorically that this unaccountable free-for-all operation, whether with the covert support of the Pakistani military or without, is unacceptable. Given that the US resists public accountability for CIA drone strikes, they should simply not be happening.
    Ali Dayan Hasan is Pakistan director at Human Rights Watch.
    http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/02/03/interview-ali-dayan-hasan

  • Saroop Ijaz writes:

    The Shia Muslims are being systematically murdered in Pakistan. Use the word ‘genocide’ and people would begin to protest and bring forth the dustiest of legal definitions. ‘Ethnic cleansing’ is slightly less contentious and is now occasionally being used in the case of the Hazara and other Shia. Reflect on the full import of the term for a moment, it has the implication that some people are merely filth and murder is a way to cleanse the impurity. Repulsive thoughts; are they not, but this is the mindset that is plainly looking us in the face. It is not ‘sectarian strife’ or ‘conflict’, since that would presume the existence of at least two parties with a semblance of parity. The euphemisms would be silly and disingenuous at all times, but what makes them wicked is that it is either fear or prejudice which leads to their usage. To admit or be open to the possibility that the Shia are being slaughtered through an orchestrated scheme, in a country with the second-highest Shia population in the world is to be open to the realisation of just how deep the rot has spread.

    http://criticalppp.com/archives/73482

  • Kafir kafir shia rafzi kafir j na manay woh bhi kafir, Kafir kafir shia rafzi kafir j na manay woh bhi kafir, Kafir kafir shia rafzi kafir j na manay woh bhi kafir, Kafir kafir shia rafzi kafir j na manay woh bhi kafir, Kafir kafir shia rafzi kafir j na manay woh bhi kafir