Original Articles

Is LUBP an anti-religion blog? – by Sarah Khan

The LUBP supports secularism but that does not mean we are anti-religion.

Lately it has been suggested by a few commentators on this blog, forum and elsewhere that the LUBP is a blog critical of Islam (or religion, in general), and has a la-deen (wrong translation of secular) orientation.

Nothing could be further from truth. Team LUBP (its editors, authors and visitors) comprise individuals who are diverse in their religious affiliations or lack of any affiliation at all. While the majority of us are proponents of secularism (i.e., separation of religion and state), that does not mean that we do not respect religion and that at least some of us do not practise our respective religion or faith to varying extents in our private lives.

For example, one of our valued posters recently commented: “…the only thing this blog [LUBP] is ever “critical” about at any given time is Islam.”

Here are some articles related to Islam (an incomplete list) based on my quick search on this blog. Hope this clarifies the LUBP’s position on religion:

Naat

Qasida Burda Sharif – dedicated to the Master of the Universe
https://lubpak.net/archives/1205

Diruz dir bustan sira (Naat)
https://lubpak.net/archives/5074

A beautiful Naat: Kalam Imam Zain-ul-Abideen (A.S.)
https://lubpak.net/archives/1398

Eid Milad-un-Nabi Mubarak. Mawlid celebrations…
https://lubpak.net/archives/1068

A beautiful Turkish Naat
https://lubpak.net/archives/867

Articles on Islam, tolerance and unity

Maulana Muhammad Ishaq – an eminent Ahle Hadith scholar
https://lubpak.net/archives/17096

Religious tolerance in Islam: an excellent lecture by Maulana Muhammad Ishaq
https://lubpak.net/archives/19627

A Religion Of Peace – By Maulana Wahiduddin Khan
https://lubpak.net/archives/557

Shia Sunni Dialogue in Pakistan: Why and How
By Abdul Malik Mujahid
https://lubpak.net/archives/304

Struggling against sectarianism: Shia-Sunni ecumenism: Views of Dr Israr Ahmed and Allama Kalbe Sadiq
https://lubpak.net/archives/312

Time for Sunni-Shia unity: An interesting debate between a tolerant Musilm and an extremist supporter of Taliban and sectarianism
https://lubpak.net/archives/165

Islamic reforms and philosophy

From the worst poster boys for Islam to a reformist view of Islam – by Nadeem Paracha
https://lubpak.net/archives/19699

Secularism does not mean ‘lack of faith’ (la-deeniat)
https://lubpak.net/archives/5539

Hajj, Karbala and Hussain – by Dr Ali Shariati
https://lubpak.net/archives/3601

Allama Iqbal and Ahlul-Bayt
https://lubpak.net/archives/688

Tasawwuf (mysticism)

Shah Abdul Latif Bhittai: the visionary – by Khurram Ali Shafique
https://lubpak.net/archives/5257

Khwaja Ghulam Farid
https://lubpak.net/archives/1192

Coverage of international disputes often associated with Islam and Muslims

In Kashmir, YouTube generation defines new struggle – by Izhar Wani
https://lubpak.net/archives/19732

Why is Pakistani media ignoring the situation in the Indian Occupied Kashmir?
https://lubpak.net/archives/18404

State sponsored terrorism in Indian Occupied Kashmir – by Abdul Nishapuri
https://lubpak.net/archives/18089

State terrorism by Israel: At least 20 aid workers killed
https://lubpak.net/archives/12006

A poem for Palestine: Seraphim weep as children die
https://lubpak.net/archives/650

Articles in support of religion

In defense of organized religion – by Garret Keizer

https://lubpak.net/archives/30394 

About the author

SK

98 Comments

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  • Aamir bhai,

    I agree we don’t need to be apologetic. However, I felt the need to write this brief post in order to thwart a potentially misleading suggestion by some posters.

    The aim is only to straighten the record once for all.

  • Religion is between Man and Allah.
    LUBP is not against Islam but this sect mongering:

    If one Talks of Fatwa then one must read the Fatwa of Deoband, Barelvis, Wahabis and Shias against each other. Who is Muslim in Pakistan in the light of these Fatwas by the way. Which Muslim Ummah these Mullahs talk about: fatwa, deobandi kafir, brelvi kafir, ahle hadith kafir, kuttay, wahabi کافر http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X01htQUvKcQ&feature=player_embedded#

    More Mullahs: now watch the reality of Tahirul Qadri who had declared that he won’t participate in Election which he did [he had declared it Haram] and do watch how he offered Five Prayers behind Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] after 1400 years and met Hazrat Hasan Ibn Ali [May Allah be pleased with him] : Love Tahir-ul-Qadri (Promo) Quadri Sahab said that Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] visited Pakistan – Watch and Weep, Lament or Laugh on The Fantasies. Love Tahir-ul-Qadri (Promo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofn5Yj9RR2Q&feature=related

    Even More Mullahs: When he had declared that he cosnider it Haram to participate in Election 1989 then why did “this Liar” got himself elected in the first place – Vanity is the biggest Vice: Why Dr.Tahir ul Qadri Resigned from National Assembly of Pakistan ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNsq1mZUamo

    Minhaj Secret Meeting Banned Video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9mrpKnavPM&feature=related

    Time for Laugh
    ایک ہی ہوں مسلم حرام کی پاسبانی کے لیہ
    نیل کے ساحل سے لے کر تابخا کے کاشغر تک “سب کافر ہیں

    Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! – Deobandi Mazhab:1/4
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyf5FlzDInI&feature=PlayList&p=785443104913A02A&playnext_from=PL&playnext

    Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! – Ahl-e-Hadith is exposing Jamat-e-Islami – Jamat Islami and Moulana Moududi’s corrupt Manhaj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IJ8OQoFsjg
    Jamat Islami and Moulana Moududi’s corrupt Manhaj-part2
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylx8_GvWuFk&feature=related

    Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! Ahl-e-Hadith is exposing Jamat-e-Islami Iqamat-E-Deen Aur Jamaat-E-Islaami – 1/7(Urdu)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdxccyRJtMs&feature=PlayList&p=47B7EBBC5529BEFA&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=16

    Who is Muslim in Pakistan? anyway! Ahl-e-hadees Deobandion ka postmortem, part 5 of 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ixq1YXKskL8&feature=related

    MORE SHAME: Deobandi Pir Criteria: [18+]
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKDauS2im_Q&feature=related

    Tariq Jameel & Taqi Usmani kay Kufriya Aqaid-Real face of Deoband Exposed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pOvJhg6Puo&feature=related
    Sheikh M Ikram in one of his books Mauj Kausar, Aab-e-Kausar and Rood-e-Kausar had written that if Hanafis Law Book Fatawa-e-Alamgiri’s Apostasy Law is fully implemented then nobody would remain Muslims in the Sub Continent.
    ایک ہی ہوں مسلم حرام کی پاسبانی کے لیہ
    نیل کے ساحل سے لے کر تابخا کے کاشغر تک “سب کافر ہیں

    Tariq Jameel Ki Haqeeqat
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxETGx91GQw&feature=related

    A glimpse: Ashraf Ali Thanvi Sexy Molvi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cay47oW-FnI
    People say that there is dearth of Electricity in Pakistan – No more load shedding – Deobandi Power Generators/Deobandi Rental Power Plant. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nar2Q17jI4o&feature=related
    MTV CLASSICS OR DEOBANDI MUSIC BOX
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YrrPkL8wo14

    Blasphemy by Barelvis: Refutation of Brelviat 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTZALzZjvQY&feature=related

    Cock Fight between Barelvis and Wahabis [Ahl-e-Hadith/Salafi]:New Munazarah Gumrah or Gustakh Koun hai? 22 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uozD9H_dF_Y&feature=related

    I always wonder why one has to issue Fatwa of Apostasy against anybody instead of debate and convince him/her through arguments and debate [peacefully and not on Loud Speakers]

  • i could not agree more with aamir sb’s comments, especially this one:

    “Why should we be apologetic when we don’t even spare PPP and Senior Bhutto:))))”

  • I agree with Aamir sb’s views as we have seen our people just wated their times in defending themselves and offending others just for nothing.

    Ms-Rabia also made it clear so now it should be understood by all the readers on LUBP.

    Good work folks!

  • LUBP is a political blog, its principals are written here, If anyone asks he should be referred to that page, we shant indulge in such debates.
    As for as secularism is concerned, it reminds me of Socrates advice to his disciple Crato about using words in its proper context. Here we have the problem of using words as per our own understanding, neither we are philosophers nor we are ignorant people, Some of the basic sources of reference are available on the web, curious ones should refer to these sources…

  • If someone expects us that we will portray the religio-political persons as stalwarts, and call our selves as their “paon ki khaak” then he will be disappointed…

  • Aamir Mughal writes;
    “There was no need to write this blog altogether. We are what we are.”
    This statement describes eloquently, but in weird kind of way the dilemma PPP faces and the Enigma PPP is.
    The last part of the sentence “We are what we are” can open up can of worms for the PPP supporters here. It is an open sentence therefore; it can be construct whichever way one likes.
    Aamir may have meant that we are the haters of the religion and self-professed so-called Secularists or vice-a-versa. The later is more unlikely therefore I take it as we are secular! Therefore, there was absolutely no need to write this blog, right? He can correct me if I am wrong.
    He objects to Sarah’s efforts to list the articles or other material written on the topic of religion namely Islam. But in the introduction Sarah writes;
    “While the majority of us are proponents of secularism (i.e., separation of religion and state), that does not mean that we do not respect religion and that at least some of us do not practice our respective religion or faith to varying extents in our private lives.”
    This is exactly the dilemma faced by PPP supporters here. On one hand they are announcing that they are Seculars, believing in the separation of religion and state, but on the other hand insistence on practice of religion albeit in private lives.
    In a nutshell, if you want to keep the religion out of the state and a private affair, then why mention your private affairs at all? If you are religious or not, that does not mean anything for the purpose of this blog. After all PPP is a political party, is it not? A Political party which in the past and at present running affairs of the state? As per the statement by Sarah, PPP believes in the separation of religion and states, therefore, the religion should have been separated by PPP. So why are they publishing or cutting and pasting different articles (more accurate description)? Unless you don’t think that religion and states affairs are separate?
    Which prompt me to ask the questions, what is secularism? And does it have any place in Islam? If not then how can you make religion of majority of Pakistanis their personal affairs? Especially when Islam teachings specifically demand that there is no separation of religion and state.
    In my humble opinion, the efforts by Sarah Khan backfire on both counts and create even muddier affairs, than making it clearer for the readers.
    Secondly, if the religion is a private affair of the citizen’s of Pakistan then why it is attacked to vehemently on this blog? Don’t you have respect for your own populace and their personal and collective beliefs?
    What would you say for the Quranic verses and teachings, which clearly imply there is no difference between religion and state? Are you of this opinion, even though Islam is the religion of majority of the people of Pakistan and Quranic teachings does not say that religion should be separated from state? In essence your assertions are you do not have any respect for the collective beliefs of your populace?
    Lastly; what would you call the lectures given by your corrupt Law Minister Babaer Awan on PTV? Why was he not keeping the religion and state separate? Not to mention, what was the value of religious lecture of a thief? Doesn’t he know what Quran says about theft and corruption, especially the misappropriation of public funds? Would he abide by the Quranic injunctions against himself? Or he is a typical hypocrite?

  • @crankthatskunk

    Your comment reflects:

    many lies and fallacies
    hatred for the PPP
    misrepresentation of the Quran
    misrepresentation of secularism
    misrepresentation of the LUBP
    misrepresentation of my post

    In a nutshell, please note that while as secular supporters of the PPP, we believe in separation of religion and state, we do not believe in forced evacuation of religion from the society (including social media) and our individual lives. Some of us follow religion, others don’t. We are perfectly comfortable with that.

    You write: “if the religion is a private affair of the citizen’s of Pakistan then why it is attacked to vehemently on this blog?”

    It seems that in your view, Islam = Taliban = Sipah-e-Sahaba = Lashkar-e-Taiba

    Because as I proved in my post above, we do not attack Islam. We however wholeheartedly (as a ‘religious duty’) attack Islamofascists, those who have abused the sacred name of Islam and the Quran.

    After reading your comment, I could see that you are a relatively better camouflaged cyber jihadi of the Hizbut Tahrir and Jamaat-e-Isalmai mafia. I needed some proof.

    I did not have to work very hard. Here is your introduction in your own words addressed to the Ahmadiyya community (who are our Pakistani brothers and sisters equal in all respects):

    http://ahmadiyya.org/WordPress/2008/09/04/comments-from-anti-ahmadiyya-crankthatskunk/

    “Let me add one more thing, this nick of mine is specially selected for your Mirza [Ghulam Ahmad]. After reading his books, first thing came to my mind was this guy stinks. There is no worse stanch in the world then Skunk. First I though to rhyme it with Sunk, to make it SunkthatSkunk. But on second thought, sinking someone is too easy and too quick. So I opted for Crankthatskunk. This nick is quite unique, and describe Mirza;s character perfectly, don’t you think so?…My problem is that I have not seen one decent and honest Quadiani, it does not matter what side of the aisle he/she sits. “

    Why am I wasting my time in responding to a hate spreading ugly creature such as yourself. You are a shame on humanity and religion. You are neither a human nor a Muslim, skunk you are!

  • crankthatskunk says: July 26, 2010 at 9:58 am Aamir Mughal writes; “There was no need to write this blog altogether. We are what we are.” This statement describes eloquently, but in weird kind of way the dilemma PPP faces and the Enigma PPP is. The last part of the sentence “We are what we are” can open up can of worms for the PPP supporters here.
    ================

    MAM: Well I have already opened “Can of Worms”, please check Javed Laghri’s Thread:)

    crankthatskunk says: July 26, 2010 at 9:58 am Aamir may have meant that we are the haters of the religion and self-professed so-called Secularists or vice-a-versa.

    MAM: Assumption is the mother of all F****ups, we do not hate religion but exploitation of religion to serve selfish ends and surely we do hate the Secularist which came into being after 911.

    crankthatskunk says: July 26, 2010 at 9:58 : believing in the separation of religion and state, but on the other hand insistence on practice of religion albeit in private lives.

    MAM: Where is insistence and what’s so harmful by practicing Religion without tinkering with anybody??

    crankthatskunk says: July 26, 2010 at 9:58 : Secondly, if the religion is a private affair of the citizen’s of Pakistan then why it is attacked to vehemently on this blog?

    MAM: Did we attack the Religious practice of any particular sect? We did attack [through pen] those who attacks Mosques and Imam Bargahs.

    crankthatskunk says: July 26, 2010 at 9:58 : What would you say for the Quranic verses and teachings, which clearly imply there is no difference between religion and state?

    MAM: Agreed but who would Interpret? Which interpretation would be acceptable in view of Sects???

  • @Amir Mughal. Maybe i am wrong, as i agree i have been many time before in my life, but i smell kaffir on you. i sincerely hope i am wrong again….. for your own safety.

    And the bloggers are right. Some are being too critical to Islam. here is what Islam says about it :

    The Holy Qur’an 5:101 states: “Believers, ask not questions about things which if made plain to you may cause you trouble when the Qur’an is revealed. Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith.”

  • @ashvin
    You consistently stereotype Islam and misrepresent Quran. You suffer from Islamophobia and must rather focus on terrorists of the VHP and BJP.

  • @Amir Mughal. Maybe i am wrong, as i agree i have been many time before in my life, but i smell kaffir on you. i sincerely hope i am wrong again….. for your own safety.
    =====================================================
    l appreciate your concern. lol

  • ashvin says: July 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm @Amir Mughal. Maybe i am wrong, as i agree i have been many time before in my life, but i smell kaffir on you. i sincerely hope i am wrong again….. for your own safety.
    ========================
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    You have raised a very relevant question that “you smell Kaffir [Disbeliever, Heathen, Pagan, Heretic, Infidel, Non-Believer] on me”, I don’t have to prove my faith to anybody but since you have started this so tell me how many Kaafir have you met who write book on Tawheed [Monotheism] and Oppose Shirk [Polythesim], for example, you read this and then Issue Fatwa of Kufr against me: Black Magic through Holy Quran! http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/07/black-magic-through-holy-quran.html

    By the way Preface for my book above is written by a Sheikhul Hadith and a Teacher of Salafi School of Thought of a Madressah which is Hard Core Salafi and it was inaugurated by Sheikh Abdullah Ibn Subbayyal of Ka’aba. If I am Kaafir then nobody is else who participated in any way with the book above.

  • ashvin says: July 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm @Amir Mughal. Maybe i am wrong, as i agree i have been many time before in my life, but i smell kaffir on you. i sincerely hope i am wrong again….. for your own safety.
    =======================

    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Do you even know the danger of Raising Doubts on somebody’s Faith/or issuing fatwa of apostasy against any person who is a Kalima Reciting Muslim, if you don’t know then read this and start worrying about your own salvation:

    Whoever offers prayers as we do and turns his face to our Qiblah and eats the animal slaughtered by us, he is a Muslim for whom is the covenant of Allah and the covenant of the Messenger of Allah; so do not violate Allah’s covenant.” [Sahih Bukhari]

    “Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.”(Sunnan Abu Dawood)

    “Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.”(Bukhari)

    “Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah’ — do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah’ as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.” (Tabarani, reported from Abdullah Ibn Omar)

    If the above Hadiths do not satisfy then read this!

    Usaamah bin Zaid reported,

    “Allaah’s Messenger sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we overwhelmed him, he said, “La ilaha illal-Lah.” On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) came to know about that and he said:

    “O Usaamah! Did you kill him after he had said “La ilaha ilal-Lah?” I said, “But he said so only to save himself.” He kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islaam before that day. [Agreed upon, and this is the wording of Bukhari]

    and in another version in Sahih Muslim about the same incident:

    “Did you tear open his heart to see what was in it?” [Muslim]

  • ashvin says: July 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm @Amir Mughal. Maybe i am wrong, as i agree i have been many time before in my life, but i smell kaffir on you. i sincerely hope i am wrong again….. for your own safety.
    ====================

    Thanks for your concern for my safety and now start worrying about your own safety in the life hereafter, read…

    أَلَّا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى
    وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَى
    وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَى
    ثُمَّ يُجْزَاهُ الْجَزَاء الْأَوْفَى

    That no laden one shall bear another’s load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen. And afterward he will be repaid for it with fullest payment; [Quran AN-NAJM (THE STAR) Chapter 53: Verse 38 to 41]

    قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَلاَ تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلاَّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

    Say: Shall I seek another than Allah for Lord, when He is Lord of all things? Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another’s load. Then unto your Lord is your return and He will tell you that wherein ye differed. [Quran AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK) Chapter 6: Verse 164]

  • ashvin says: July 26, 2010 at 12:59 pm @Amir Mughal. And the bloggers are right. Some are being too critical to Islam. here is what Islam says about it : The Holy Qur’an 5:101 states: “Believers, ask not questions about things which if made plain to you may cause you trouble when the Qur’an is revealed. Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith.”
    ======================
    Dear Sir/Madam,

    Every single verse of Quran has a context and background [Shaan-e-Nazool], the above one’s is as under:

    يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَاء إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ وَإِن تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْهَا حِينَ يُنَزَّلُ الْقُرْآنُ تُبْدَ لَكُمْ عَفَا اللّهُ عَنْهَا وَاللّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ

    Interpretation of the meaning:

    O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement. [AL-MAEDA (THE TABLE, THE TABLE SPREAD) Chapter 5 – Verse 101]

    Detailed Interpretation:

    Allah said next,

    ﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَآءَ إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ﴾

    (O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.) This Ayah refers to good conduct that Allah is teaching His believing servants, by forbidding them from asking about useless things. Since if they get the answers they sought, they might be troublesome for them and difficult on their ears. Al-Bukhari recorded that Anas bin Malik said, “The Messenger of Allah gave a speech unlike anything I heard before. In this speech, he said,

    «لَو تَعْلَمُونَ مَا أَعْلَمُ، لَضَحِكْتُمْ قَلِيلًا، وَلَبَكَيْتُمْ كَثِيرًا»

    (If you but know what I know, you will laugh little and cry a lot.) The companions of Allah’s Messenger covered their faces and the sound of crying was coming out of their chests. A man asked, `Who is my father’ The Prophet said, `So-and-so’. This Ayah was later revealed,

    ﴿لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَآءَ﴾

    (Ask not about things…).” Muslim, Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and An-Nasa’i recorded this Hadith. Ibn Jarir recorded that Qatadah said about Allah’s statement,

    ﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَآءَ إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ﴾

    (O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.) Anas bin Malik narrated that once, the people were questioning the Messenger of Allah until they made him angry. So he ascended the Minbar and said,

    «لَا تَسْأَلُونِي الْيَوْمَ عَنْ شَيْءٍ إِلَّا بَيَّنْتُهُ لَكُم»

    (You will not ask me about anything today but I will explain it to you.) So the Companions of the Messenger of Allah feared that it was the commencement of a momentous event, and I looked to my right and left and found only people who covered their faces, crying. An argumentative man who was said to be the son of someone other than his true father asked, “O Allah’s Messenger! Who is my father The Prophet said, `Your father is Hudhafah.” `Umar stood up (when he saw anger on the Prophet’s face) and said, “We accept Allah as our Lord, Islam as our religion and Muhammad as our Messenger, I seek refuge with Allah from the evil of the Fitan (trials in life and religion).” The Messenger of Allah said,

    «لَمْ أَرَ فِي الْخَيْرِ وَالشَّرِّ كَالْيَومِ قَطُّ، صُوِّرَتْ لِي الجَنَّةُ وَالنَّارُ حَتَّى رَأَيْتُهُمَا دُونَ الْحَائِط»

    (I have never witnessed both goodness and evil like I have today. Paradise and the Fire were shown to me and I saw them before that wall.) This Hadith was recorded in the Two Sahihs from Sa`id. Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said, “Some people used to question the Messenger of Allah to mock him. One of them would ask, `Who is my father,’ while another would ask, `Where is my camel,’ when he lost his camel. Allah sent down this Ayah about them,

    ﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَآءَ إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ﴾

    (O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble…).” Imam Ahmad recorded that `Ali said, “When this Ayah was revealed,

    ﴿وَللَّهِ عَلَى النَّاسِ حِجُّ الْبَيْتِ مَنِ اسْتَطَـعَ إِلَيْهِ سَبِيلاً﴾

    (And Hajj to the House is a duty that mankind owes to Allah, those who can bear the journey.)﴿3:97﴾, they asked, `O Allah’s Messenger! Is it required every year’ He did not answer them, and they asked again, `Is it every year’ He still did not answer them, so they asked, `Is it every year’ He said,

    «لَا، وَلَوْ قُلْتُ: نَعَمْ لَوَجَبَتْ وَلَوْ وَجَبَتْ لَمَا اسْتَطَعْتُم»

    (No, and had I said `yes’, it would have become obligated, and had it become obligated, you would not be able to bear it.) Allah sent down,

    ﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْ أَشْيَآءَ إِن تُبْدَ لَكُمْ تَسُؤْكُمْ﴾

    (O you who believe! Ask not about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble.).” At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah also recorded this Hadith. The apparent wording of this Ayah indicates that we are forbidden to ask about things that if one has knowledge of, he would be sorry he had asked. Consequently, it is better to avoid such questions. rAllah’s statement,

    ﴿وَإِن تَسْأَلُواْ عَنْهَا حِينَ يُنَزَّلُ الْقُرْءَانُ تُبْدَ لَكُمْ﴾

    (But if you ask about them while the Qur’an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you.) means, if you ask about things that you are prohibited from asking about, then when the revelation about them comes to the Messenger , they will be made plain for you,

    ﴿وَذَلِكَ عَلَى اللَّهِ يَسِيرٌ﴾

    (Verily! That is easy for Allah.) Allah said next,

    ﴿عَفَا اللَّهُ عَنْهَا﴾

    (Allah has forgiven that,) what you did before this,

    ﴿وَاللَّهُ غَفُورٌ حَلِيمٌ﴾

    (and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Forbearing.) Do not ask about things that do not have a ruling yet, for because of your questions, a difficult ruling may be ordained. A Hadith states,

    «أَعْظَمُ الْمُسْلِمِينَ جُرْمًا مَنْ سَأَلَ عَنْ شَيْءٍ لَمْ يُحَرَّمْ، فَحُرِّمَ مِنْ أَجْلِ مَسْأَلَتِه»

    (The worst criminal among the Muslims is he who asks if a matter is unlawful (or not), and it becomes unlawful because of his asking about it.) It is recorded in the Sahih that the Messenger of Allah said,

    «ذَرُونِي مَا تَرَكْتُكُمْ، فَإِنَّمَا أَهْلَكَ مَنْ كَانَ قَبْلَكُمْ كَثْرَةُ سُؤَالِهِمْ وَاخْتِلَافُهُمْ عَلَى أَنْبِيَائِهِم»

    (Leave me as I have left you, those before you were destroyed because of many questions and disputing with their Prophets.) An authentic Hadith also states,

    «أَنَّ اللهَ تَعَالَى فَرَضَ فَرَائِضَ فَلَا تُضَيِّعُوهَا، وَحَدَّ حُدُودًا فَلَا تَعْتَدُوهَا، وَحَرَّمَ أَشْيَاءَ فَلَا تَنْتَهِكُوهَا، وَسَكَتَ عَنْ أَشْيَاءَ رَحْمَةً بِكُمْ غَيْرَ نِسْيَانٍ فَلَا تَسْأَلُوا عَنْهَا»

    (Allah, the Most Honored, has ordained some obligations, so do not ignore them; has set some limits, so do not trespass them; has prohibited some things, so do not commit them; and has left some things without rulings, out of mercy for you, not that He forgot them, so do not ask about them.) Allah said next,

    ﴿قَدْ سَأَلَهَا قَوْمٌ مِّن قَبْلِكُمْ ثُمَّ أَصْبَحُواْ بِهَا كَـفِرِينَ ﴾

    (Before you, a community asked such questions, then on that account they became disbelievers.) meaning, some people before your time asked such questions and they were given answers. They did not believe the answers, so they became disbelievers because of that. This occurred because these rulings were made plain to them, yet they did not benefit at all from that, for they asked about these things not to gain guidance, but only to mock and defy.

    Courtesy: Tafsir Ibn Kathir.

  • Abdul Nishapuri says: – July 26, 2010 at 2:15 pm @ashvin You consistently stereotype Islam and misrepresent Quran. You suffer from Islamophobia and must rather focus on terrorists of the VHP and BJP.
    =====================
    For a starter: They burnt my whole family. On February 28, we went to Ehsan Jaffrey’s home for safety. He is an ex-member of parliament…. At 10:30 a.m. the stone throwing started. First there were 200 people then 500 from all over, then more. We were 200-250 people. We threw stones in self-defense. They had swords, pipes, soda-lemon bottles, sharp weapons, petrol, kerosene, and gas cylinders. They began shouting, “Maro, kato,” [“Kill them, cut them”] and “Mian ko maro.” [“Kill the Muslims”]. I hid on the third floor. http://www.hrw.org/en/reports/2002/04/30/we-have-no-orders-save-you

  • Abdul Nishapuri says: – July 26, 2010 at 2:15 pm @ashvin You consistently stereotype Islam and misrepresent Quran. You suffer from Islamophobia and must rather focus on terrorists of the VHP and BJP.
    =====================
    For a starter: This might be the reason of Poverty of Indian Muslims: The Rajinder Sachar Committee finds that the Muslim community in India is deprived and neglected, and makes far-reaching recommendations. http://minorityaffairs.gov.in/newsite/sachar/sachar_comm.pdf

  • Sarah Khan writes; “Your comment reflects:
    many lies and fallacies
    hatred for the PPP
    misrepresentation of the Quran
    misrepresentation of secularism
    misrepresentation of the LUBP
    misrepresentation of my post”
    Ho ho ho, conjectures galore in your post. I have already written in my post on the other thread, you guys are masters of assumptions, albeit false assumptions.
    I didn’t misrepresent anything at all; I in fact asked you series of questions.

    I want to know what secularism is, you should have obliged me instead of shooting from the hips and jump on your tirade of personal insults. I am not going to repeat it again, but you are not very honest and credible people as a group. A fact which is obvious from actions of your elitist leaders and your members.

    You don’t have to introduce clipping from my blog, I know exactly what I have written. I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam. I am started to take issue with PPP now, because I know exactly what danger you pose to my beloved Pakistan. Qadianis have every right to defend themselves, and prove my presentations and material false. Something they have woefully failed to do in last 3 years. Before that I was not even aware of them and their danger to the Muslims. I am using the scholarly approach to expose their lies, which is my God given and Lawful right. That put to rest your stupid comments and personal insults about me.

    My arguments are valid and I as a free citizen; I have every right to express my opinion and facts. There are absolutely no restrictions on free speech in Europe.

    “1.Because as I proved in my post above, we do not attack Islam. We however wholeheartedly (as a ‘religious duty’) attack Islamofascists, those who have abused the sacred name of Islam and the Quran.”

    You didn’t prove anything, you just listed shortcut to few articles on Islam. How that be proving anything?

    “1.After reading your comment, I could see that you are a relatively better camouflaged cyber jihadi of the Hizbut Tahrir and Jamaat-e-Isalmai mafia. I needed some proof.”

    I will ignore your personal comments; I have already written these are rumblings of mad and corrupt people. Who have absolutely no answers and defence for their crooked party and leaders, defence for the looting and frauds by their party.

    As a matter of fact I have absolutely nothing to do with either of the outfits you quoted or with any outfits at all. I can assure you, you cannot make me lose my cool with personal insults nor are you going to detract me from the purpose I am on your forum. I intend to explore the truth of your slogan, do you really want to build Pakistan or destroy it? On the surface it seems to millions of Pakistanis that you are intend to and hell bound to destroy Pakistan, to loot it’s ordinary poor people of their livelihood. They have already lost their self-respect as a direct result suicides in Pakistan are on the increase. Which saddened my heart, therefore, I am here to do my duty as a lover of Pakistan. To save it from looters and crooks who are working for their own benefits and in the process looting Pakistan’s resources with both hands.

    Could you please define for me Secularism? That what I asked you to do, I will be obliged. Once you have done that I will move on to other issues, which you have thrown personal insults on me. I will prove you, you are wrong and your slogans as empty and useless rhetoric.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    ========================

    Danger they “Pose” to the Muslims and Islam!!!

    Sir,

    How about some soul searching, let me give you a glimpse:

    Some Hard Facts which we don’t accept
    Gen. Hamid Gul is made head of Pakistan’s ISI. [YOUSAF AND ADKIN, 1992, PP. 91-92] General Gul is a favorite of CIA Station Chief Milt Bearden and US ambassador to Pakistan Arnie Raphel, who view him as an ally and a potential national leader of Pakistan. [BEARDEN AND RISEN, 2003, PP. 301] Lt. General Retd. Hamid Gul who wind up the investigations of General Zia’s Plane Crash -Read, Who Killed Zia below]. REFERENCE: Major General [R] Mahmud Ali Durrani and Security Breach http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/01/major-general-r-mahmud-ali-durrani-and.html

    Taliban had visited USA in late 90s:))
    US ambassador to Pakistan Arnie Raphel: Mr. Raphel married his third wife, the former Nancy Ely, who had worked in the State Department’s legal affairs office, shortly before leaving for Pakistan. His second wife, Robin Raphel, is a Foreign Service officer stationed in Pretoria, South Africa. Arnold L. Raphel: An Envoy of Deep Commitment By DAVID BINDER, Special to the New York Times Published: August 18, 1988
    http://www.nytimes.com/1988/08/18/world/arnold-l-raphel-an-envoy-of-deep-commitment.html?pagewanted=1
    Robin Raphel used used to “negotiate” with the Talibans between 1996 to 911. [Her husband died with Zia]

    Now Shocks:
    Robin Raphel: That support, the intelligence officials said, apart from ammunition and fuel, included the deployment at crucial junctures of Pakistani military advisers. The advisers were easy to hide, since they were almost all ethnic Pashtuns, from the same tribe that make up an overwhelming majority of the Taliban. Gaining Support To U.S. Diplomats A Rosy Picture American officials like Robin Raphel, the top State Department official dealing directly with matters involving Afghanistan, have placed heavy emphasis on the hope that contacts with the new rulers in Kabul will encourage them to soften their policies, especially toward women. They also say that the United States sees the Taliban, with its Islamic conservatism, as the best, and perhaps the only, chance that Afghanistan will halt the poppy growing and opium production that have made Afghanistan, with an estimated 2,500 tons of raw opium a year, the world’s biggest single-country source of the narcotic.
    Two days later, Karl Inderfurth went to Islamabad to meet Pakistan’s new leader, General Pervez Musharraf. He also met two senior Taliban representatives and demanded: “Give us Bin Laden”. In return, he offered to regularise relations between Kabul and the world. Although Washington denied it, the Taliban, internationally condemned for policies towards women, attitudes to human rights and protection of Bin Laden, were still in talks with the US. On 27 November the Taliban deputy minister of foreign affairs, Abdur Rahman Zahid, gave a lecture at the Washington Middle East Institute, calling for political recognition of the Taliban regime and intimating that the Bin Laden affair could then be settled (10). Ronald Reagan, Afghan Mujahideen, Talibans & Royal Mess. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/03/ronald-reagn-afghan-mujahideen-talibans.html

    On page 503 in Charlie Wilson’s War, the author quoted “but it was losing Zia that crushed Charlie. At the state funeral in Islamabad, with a million Pakistanis and Mujahideen crowding up to him, Charlie made his way to Akhtar’s successor, Hamid Gul, and broke into tears. “I have lost my father on this day,” he said.
    YOUSAF is Brigadier Yousuf mentioned in post number 4.3] , Formerly the Afghan Cell Incharge and regular visitor of “Farm” in Langley, Virginia US of A [Ref: Charlie Wilson War] and then he joined “Millat Party” of Farooq Laghari, and then supported Musharraf and then joined “Ex Servicemen Society”
    Senior of Brigadier Imtiaz i.e. Brigadier I A Tirmidhi [also served in ISI] had revealed in his book “Profile of Intelligence” (published in 90s) that Gen Hamid Gul, Brig. Imtiaz and Maj. Aamir were all demented and involved in Corruption i.e. using Afghan Pipeline. Above all that Sitara Basalat which was given to Imtiaz was given on Sifarish.
    As the pipeline was expanded it began to spring big leaks. Problems with the pipeline had existed from the beginning, but by 1985 they were becoming more obvious. Twenty nine of the forty Oerlikon anti aircraft guns the CIA had purchased in Switzerland at over $1 million a piece never made it to Afghanistan. Somewhere along the line these and many other weapons were put to other uses by either the Afghans, the Pakistanis, or the CIA itself. A significant amount of the leaking was (as it stiff is) coming from within Pakistan, where corrupt government and rebel officials have suddenly become quite rich. Pakistani General Akhtar Abdul Rahman, head of the ISID up to 1987, and his successor, General Hamid Gul, are suspected to have been prime benefactors of the pipeline. They and their subordinates within the ISID’s National Logistics Cell (NLC) could easily have made a fortune off CIA supplies.
    The Afghan Pipeline By Steve Galster. – 2
    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2008/10/afghan-pipeline-by-steve-galster-2.html

    Listen and watch the “boasting” of this Joker “Yaani Top Kay Dahanay Par Betha Hai” aur Falitay mein Ungli Kar Raha Hai.
    ’امریکی کمزوریاں جانتا ہوں‘
    پاکستانی خفیہ ادارے آئی ایس آئی کے سابق سربراہ لیفٹنٹ جنرل (ریٹائرڈ) حمید گل پر ویکی لیکس کی جانب سے جاری ہونے والی ’خفیہ ڈائریز‘ میں کئی مقامات پر طالبان کی مدد کا الزام عائد کیا گیا ہے۔
    تاہم بی بی سی سے ایک انٹرویو میں انہوں نے ان تمام الزامات کی سختی سے تردید کی ہے۔
    آخری وقت اشاعت: پير 26 جولائ 2010 , 17:33 GMT 22:33 PST
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/urdu/multimedia/2010/07/100726_hameed_gul.shtml
    LOL: I have worked with them [USA but read CIA] him, I know them [USA but read CIA] – Hamid Gul in the interview above.
    Would Mr. Hamid Gul like to enlighten us all as to who is called agent and in which capacity he worked with US Government 1979 – 1993 [he retired during Nawaz’s first regime]

    Now, watch the US Dubious Role: Hamid Gul’s negative influence on USA:) The United States has condemned as “irresponsible” the leak of 90,000 military records, saying publication could threaten national security. The documents released by the Wikileaks website include details of killings of Afghan civilians unreported until now. US says Wikileaks could ‘threaten national security’ 26 July 2010 Last updated at 13:15 GMT http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10758578

    Mr. Hamid Gul is also suffering from amnesia, he supported the 12 Oct 1999 Coup: General Hamid Gul: “The army acted in the national interest” [LISTEN] : http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/01/alleged-demand-for-trial-of-nro.html [click the BBC links of 12 Oct 1999 coup] – musharrad and co were supporting every kind of Jihadis before 911 and even after that right under the nose of Bush: And this takes me back to Pervez Musharraf’s first visit to the US after his coup. At a meeting with a group of journalists among whom I was present, my dear and much lamented friend Tahir Mirza, then the Dawn correspondent, asked Musharraf why he was not acting against Lashkar-e Tayba and Jaish-e Muhammad. Musharraf went red in the face and shot back, “They are not doing anything in Pakistan. They are doing jihad outside.”

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    ====================

    Danger to Muslim and Alleged Islamic World, take a deep breath and read about the destruction which Muslims themselves brought on Islamic World [with references and dates]: Corrupt, Vile & Filthy: Arabs, Aal-e-Saud, & Wahhaabis. http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/06/corrupt-vile-filthy-arabs-aal-e-saud.html

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    ===============
    Dangers to Islam and Muslim but from whom? Muslims themselves or Non-Muslims:

    “QUOTE”

    Late Maj Gen Aboobaker Osman Mitha [The Only Memon General of Pakistan Army and he founded the Special Service Group (SSG – Commando Division of the Pakistan Army) posthumously published autobiography, Unlikely Beginnings. http://openlibrary.org/b/OL3723841M/Unlikely-beginnings

    According to Gen Mitha, it was Gul Hasan who saved Brig Zia-ul-Haq, as he then was, from being sacked. Zia was in Jordan. The year was 1971. Gen Yahya received a signal from Maj Gen Nawazish, the head of the Pakistan military mission in Amman, asking that Zia be court-martialled for disobeying GHQ orders by commanding a Jordanian armour division against the Palestinians in which thousands were slaughtered. That ignominious event is known as Operation Black September. It was Gul Hasan who interceded for Zia and had Yahya let him off. Mitha was treated very badly. His Hilal-i-Jurat was withdrawn in February 1972, something that also appears to have been Gul Hasan’s handiwork.

    “UNQUOTE”

    “QUOTE”

    The most promising comparison between the Islamic Republic of Pakistan and the Jewish State of Israel came from Gen. Zia ul-Haq. Lacking a political constituency, he skillfully exploited Islam to legitimize and consolidate his military dictatorship. Presenting himself as a simple, pious and devoted Muslim, he institutionalized religious radicalism in Pakistan. In so doing, he found Israel to be his strange ally. Toward the end of 1981, he remarked: Pakistan is like Israel, an ideological state. Take out the Judaism from Israel and it will fall like a house of cards. Take Islam out of Pakistan and make it a secular state; it would collapse. He likewise surprised many observers in March 1986, when he called on the PLO to recognize the Jewish state. As discussed elsewhere, he was actively involved both in the 1970 Black September massacre of the Palestinians in Jordan as well as in Egypts re-entry into the Islamic fold more than a decade later. From 1967 to 1970 our Commander of the Faithful Late. General Muhammad Ziaul Haq was in Jordan in Official Militray Capacity and he helped late. King Hussain of Jordan in cleansing the so-called Palestinian Insurgents, Zia and Hussain butchered many innocent Palestinians in the name of Operation against Black September {a militant organization of Palestinians}. The intensity of bloodletting by Zia ul Haq and King Hussain was such that one of the founder father of Israel Moshe Dayan said:

    King Hussein (with help from Zia-ul-Haq of the Pakistani army) sent in his Bedouin army on 27 September to clear out the Palestinian bases in Jordan. A massacre of innumerable proportions ensued. Moshe Dayan noted that Hussein “killed more Palestinians in eleven days than Israel could kill in twenty years.” Dayan is right in spirit, but it is hardly the case that anyone can tch the Sharonism in its brutality. General (R) Hamid Gul, Brigadier (R) Imtiaz & Jews
    http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2009/07/general-r-hamid-gul-brigadier-r-imtiaz.html

  • Aamir Mughal,

    In your first post, there is not much to answer, apart from the fact that in the guise of attacking people you indirectly attack Islam. When I say you, I mean PPP and his followers as a group, not you personally. Misrepresentation by many of the Islamic teachings is not the fault of the religion of Islam, period.

    You have twice quoted sects in your response, I do not believe in sects. I have already written an article “recitation of Kalima” on my blog, which includes the evidence on Sects, you can read it if you wish.

    I want to know what interpretations of these Quranic verses Prophet Muhammad SAW had? He SWT didn’t belong to any sect, did he? What did he SAW thoughts of secularism and separation of religion and state?

    Even though, some wild and baseless assumptions are already made about me by your colleagues, but I can assure everyone here, the reality is completely against the presumptions made.

  • A correction for my post address to Aamir Mughal,
    I wrote, “He SWT didnt belong to any sect”. The salutation used is a grave and unintentional error. It should be read as “He SAW didn’t belong to any sect”. May Allah SWT forgive me of my error. I only realised my mistake after I posted my comments. Thanks for all to all for understanding.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:03 am Aamir Mughal, Misrepresentation by many of the Islamic teachings is not the fault of the religion of Islam, period.
    ===================

    Sir,

    Who will decide [in Pakistan] about the Status of the Correctness of Interpretation of Islam [watch the differences of Mullahs in the youtube glimpses in post number 5] and Nobody is seeking Faults in Islam on LUBP just questioning the saber rattling of Mullahs and their wild tongues.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:03 am You have twice quoted sects in your response, I do not believe in sects. I have already written an article “recitation of Kalima” on my blog, which includes the evidence on Sects, you can read it if you wish.

    MAM: You don’t believe in Sects but overwhelming Pakistanis do.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:03 am I want to know what interpretations of these Quranic verses Prophet Muhammad SAW had? He SWT didn’t belong to any sect, did he?

    MAM: I agree but that Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] and three generation after him didn’t believe in Sects but go and convince Barelvis, Shias, Deobandis and Ahl-e-Hadith and do read their books against each other for a starter read “Maqalat by Irshadul Haq Asari” and you will be amazed.

  • Aamir Mughal,

    Man, what are you all about? Are you insane or what?
    What all this crap about Hameed Gul has anything to do with me? Am I his representative here? I don’t even know the man or his writings, I only know of him through the TV programs which everyone watches.

    Please answer me the question I have asked you in my recent comments addressed to you. I am a much focused individual. I am thorough, I do not get involved in frivolous things, stay to the point in discussion. For everything else there may be time and place, but not now, not on this thread, I want the answers to my two simple questions from you and others if they wish to get involved.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:03 am Aamir Mughal, In your first post, there is not much to answer, apart from the fact that in the guise of attacking people you indirectly attack Islam. When I say you, I mean PPP and his followers as a group, not you personally. Misrepresentation by many of the Islamic teachings is not the fault of the religion of Islam, period.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    =========================
    Read these Attacks on Islam by Mullahs:

    Now read what the Giant Ulema of Deoband, Bareli and Ahl-e-Hadith have uttered worst Blasphemous Comment rather “Disbelief” now download these Comment from this website’s Heading Ghar Kay Chiragh with original reference. Blasphemous Comment by Mullahs against Islam not only Islam but Quran, and Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] and these Mullahs didn’t even spare Allah. Links are as under: JPG/QUOTES to show mirror to Barking Mullahs.

    Ghar Kay Chiragh Part – 1

    http://www.emanekhalis.com/emanqist1/emangist.htm

    Sunta Ja Parhata Ja aur Sharmata Ja [Listen to height of stupidities, read the stupidities and be embarrassed to the hilt] Deendari Ya Dukandari:

    http://www.emanekhalis.com/din/din.htm

    Brazen Blasphemy against Prophet [PBUT] in the garb of Sufism? Is Shariat Court or Mullahs sleeping?

    http://emanekhalis.com/emanqist1/emangist69.htm

    Click “agla safha” till the page number 73.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:23 am Aamir Mughal,
    Man, what are you all about? Are you insane or what? What all this crap about Hameed Gul has anything to do with me? Am I his representative here? I don’t even know the man or his writings, I only know of him through the TV programs which everyone watches. Please answer me the question I have asked you in my recent comments addressed to you.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    ==========================

    You query has been answered. You asked about Dangers to Islam and Muslim, I have just shown you the mirror.

  • Aamir Mughal says: July 27, 2010 at 5:26 am Please answer me the question I have asked you in my recent comments addressed to you. I am a much focused individual.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 4:30 am I took the issues with Qadianis after realising what danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.
    ==================
    You query has also been answered in post number 37 which is related “danger they pose to the Muslims around the world and to Islam.”

  • Aamir Mughal,

    Despite writing all kind of irrelevant non-sense, you are reluctant to answer my straight forward questions.

    My questions are if you failed to notice until now.
    1- What are the definitions of secularism?
    2- What were the point of views and practices adopted by Prophet Muhammad SAW for your slogan; separation of religion and state?
    3- How Prophet Muhammad SAW did interpret the verses of the Holy Quran on religion and state?

    Are these very hard questions for the supporters of PPP? If they are, then state please, instead of writings irrelevant information which had nothing to do with the questions I am asking.

    If you disagree with certain people then take issues with them, to me just answer my straight questions, and oblige me.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:39 am Aamir Mughal, Despite writing all kind of irrelevant non-sense, you are reluctant to answer my straight forward questions.
    ==================
    I have answered all of your queries provided you would have read:)

    My questions are if you failed to notice until now.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:39 am 1 – What are the definitions of secularism?

    MAM: In my humble opinion “separation of religion form the function of state” and if you insist that these should go together then please answer my question “which interpretation” would be applicable in Pakistan????

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:39 am 2 – What were the point of views and practices adopted by Prophet Muhammad SAW for your slogan; separation of religion and state?

    MAM: Just tell me the Method of Selection of Caliphs Prophet Mohammad [PBUH] advised for the Ummah?

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:39 am 3 – How Prophet Muhammad SAW did interpret the verses of the Holy Quran on religion and state?

    MAM: Since you have adopted the Role of Interpreter of Islam so tell me the Method of Electing or Selecting of Head of State in Islam.

  • Aamir Mughal,

    You are not answering my straight forward questions. In your latest response, you still avoided my questions.

    1- You said your humble opinion state should be separated from the religion. Did I ask your humble opinion? I asked you what was the opinion of Prophet Muhammad SAW? Do you understand my question? If you do, then why are you reluctant to answer my question? Answer it straight forward way, and then we move on.

    2- Why selection of Caliph is relevant for my questions? I asked you the question about Prophet Muhammad SAW interpretations of the verses of the Holy Quran, answer it. If you want to base your answer on the selection of Caliph(s) by Prophet Muhammad SAW, then onus is on you to state the procedure adopted or advice given by Prophet Muhammad SAW. Don’t ask me to do your job. You make your arguments and presentations the way you want; I just want answers to my questions. You can argue your case after presenting the evidence.

    3- You falsely accused me that I have adopted the role of interpreter of Islam. I have done no such thing; I on the contrary asked you how Prophet Muhammad SAW interpreted these verses. Shame on you to level such accusations on me. Shame on you not to answer the questions in straight forward way. If you want to state the method of selection of head of states adopted by Prophet Muhammad SAW, then produce the evidence and make your case. Once again do not expect me to make your case for you.

    Now for the last time, answer my questions, or accept that this thread is opened on false pretences by Sarah Khan. There is no such thing as separation of religion and state in Islam. If there is then show me the evidence from the Holy Quran and from the life and Aswa-e-Hasna of our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW (May peace and blessing of Allah SWT and all the Angels be upon him).

    I must remind you, I am not asking the interpretations and practice of anyone else, only the interpretations done by Prophet Muhammad SAW and examples left by him SAW.
    There was no better interpreter of the Holy Quran and the Islamic teaching then he SAW.
    If you have doubts about this, then state your position.

    As I said, despite your best efforts to divert the thread to different directions and different people, I will stick to the task in hand and insist on you to answer my questions in the letter.

    I also remind you all, it is your thread and your bold assertions, you are responsible to defend your proclamations. Do not ask me the questions; I have not made the announcement that there is separation of religion and state in Islam. I am asking you the understandings and interpretations by Prophet Muhammad SAW. Was there any better interpretation then him SAW?

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 6:14 am Aamir Mughal, You are not answering my straight forward questions. In your latest response, you still avoided my questions.
    ===================
    Sir,

    You don’t even read what you write and then raise twenty questions, your question was crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 5:39 am Aamir Mughal, Despite writing all kind of irrelevant non-sense, you are reluctant to answer my straight forward questions. My questions are if you failed to notice until now. 1- What are the definitions of secularism?

    My answer was:

    In my humble opinion “separation of religion form the function of state”

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 6:14 am Aamir Mughal, 2- Why selection of Caliph is relevant for my questions?
    ======================

    Yes it is very much relevant. Show me any verse of Quran defining the system of Selection of Ruler.

  • Redefining secularism
    Md. Anwarul Kabir

    Hoisting the flag of secularism by combating communalism was one of the spirits of our Liberation War. So, after liberation following the peoples’ aspiration, 1972 constitution incorporated secularism as one of its salient features. However, the post 1975 politics has changed the situation and we reverted to the realm of communalism, at least at the state level. The reasons behind this U-turn are manifolds. Yet, one may argue that as the term ‘secularism’ was not defined objectively in our context, the handful of communal forces, over the period, could successfully misguide the psyche of the common people with a view to promoting their own political agenda. The apparent debacle of communal forces in the last election does not negate the possibility of their revival in near future. In fact, to annihilate communal forces, secular democrats must work at the policy level and redefine the term secularism.

    In fact, there is no universal notion of secularism. The rationalist and atheist notion of secularism considers religion and secularism quite contrary to each other. This notion suggests that religion and secularism are rigidly incompatible as secularism is non-religious, if not altogether anti-religious philosophy. So, in framing state policy, a secular state should not care about any religious beliefs or practices of the citizens. Even in extreme cases, such secular state can debar the citizens from practising their religious obligations. The communist blocks, especially former Soviet Union, established this notion of secularism.

    The western liberal notion of secularism as practised in many countries in West suggests that there is no contradiction between religion and secularism. Rather, it concentrates on the separation of the church and state. This model suggests that the state should remain independent of church and unlike medieval societies, the church has no role in framing state policies. However, church still can play significant roles in the private sphere of life until it confronts the secular state policy.

    In Bangladesh, the communal forces through their ill-motive propaganda have misguided the people by defining secularism in line with the rationalist and atheist notion. For this, majority of the people perceive secularism as an anti-religious ideology and being religion oriented naturally they do not endorse this sort of secularism.

    Now the question is whether the western notion of secularism is applicable to our country or not. For this, we need to assess the influence of religion on the state affairs both in west and in Indian sub-continent from historical perspective. Throughout Europe, not only in medieval period but until 18th century the church had played crucial roles in framing and regulating state policies. During this period not the state, rather the church was the deciding factor to limit the freedom of the people and everything was determined in accordance with the biblical doctrine. So, in real sense, the countries in Europe then were theocratic by nature. However, due to the development of natural science, rise of the Renaissance Humanists and the Enlightenment, the supreme authority of the church over the state affairs had been collapsed gradually and ultimately church and state were completely separated during the period of 17th and 18th centuries. In the context of Europe, Martin Luther (1483-1546 AD), a German theologian-professor and the founder of Protestantism initiated the first step of the separation of state and church by introducing doctrine of two kingdoms (one is secular and other is spiritual) of the God. Like Europe, America also witnessed more of less similar experience and in the USA, separation of the state and religion was endorsed in 1791 through the first amendment of the constitution. But the case of Indian subcontinent in this context was completely different.

    Before Mughul empire, most of the regions in India were ruled by Hindu kings. As Hinduism is a broad spectrum of religion and it covers different variety of indigenous religious beliefs (e.g. monotheistic, multi-theistic including atheism), the ancient Hindu kings showed attitude of religious tolerance and run the state in secular manner. The Mughul emperors (1526-1857AD), except Aurangajeb (1618-1707 AD) continued to conduct the state affairs in secular mode and they never tried to establish theocratic Islamic state. Especially, the tenure of the great Emperor Akbar was hallmarked for his secular practices in running the kingdom. By capturing essence of all virtues from all major religions of his time, he introduced Din-e-Elahi with a view to upholding the philosophy of secularism. Such unification of different religions in Din-e-Elahi indeed can be viewed as an effort of establishing secularism of Indian style. This secularism did not negate religions. Even unlike in Europe, this nurtured all religious doctrines rendering peaceful co-existence of their followers.

    After independence from the British regime Jawaharlal Nehru, realising the very essence of secularism of Indian style, framed the constitution. So, it is unsurprising that in India, in many cases the state promotes religions and religious activities (for instance it sanctions huge funds for religious institutions and education). However, the precondition for this is that such state funded institutions must not discriminate any citizen for his/her religious belief. In practice, this works great, and so in the state funded Muslim Madrasas, not only Muslims but Hindus and people from other religions also can study without any religious prejudice.

    Now the question is what mode of secularism should Bangladesh follow? As the majority of the citizens of the country though not orthodox but religious, we must discard the rationalist and atheist notion of secularism. Again, culturally in our everyday life, the influence of religions is so immense that it is not possible on our part to separate state from religion. So, western notion of secularism will also fail to serve our purpose. In fact, Bangladesh has to define its own brand of secularism considering the fact that the majority people of the country are Muslims and Bengali. Moreover, we have to realise that Bangladesh consists of other religious communities along with some indigenous ethnic minorities. So in defining secularism we must consider Bangladesh as a pluralist society in both religious and cultural aspects.

    Our secularism may be closer to that of Indian’s one but it must originate from our own soil. In this region, though the majority of the people are Muslims, historically they have been upholding and practising Bengali culture without any confrontation with Islam. The reason behind this lies in the way of preaching Islam which began in around 14th century in this region. Most of the people who were converted into Muslims in the erstwhile East Bengal were from the lower strata of Hindu community inspired by the Peer/Aowalia who followed the Sufism contrary to the orthodox view of the Islam. This Sufism emphasised a spiritual union with God and did not require its newest adherents to abandon their traditional beliefs and practice totally. So, the influence of indigenous Bengali cultural practise is predominantly evident in Muslim community in Bangladesh. For this, the majority of the Muslims here keep liberal outlook and traditionally believe in the principle of peaceful coexistence with other religious communities. So, implementing secularism in Bangladesh is relatively an easier task compared with other Muslim countries.

    Perhaps, while defining secularism in 1972 constitution, Bangabandhu had crystal clear conception of secularism of the land. To him secularism was not to discard religion. Rather he was eager to promote all religions and bring religious harmony in the country. For instance, during his tenure recitations from all major scriptures at the opening of any state function can be cited. Besides, considering Bangladesh as one of the Muslim majority countries, albeit a secular state he was keen to maintain good tie with other Muslim majority countries and joined OIC. His decision of installing Islamic Foundation and patronising major Hindu/Buddha festivals should also be considered in line with the secularism of our brand.

    Finally, in implementing secularism in Bangladesh we must emphasise on real essence of Islam. Unlike medieval Sharia-based orthodox Islam, Quaranic Islam always upholds the secularism in state affairs. So, a paradigm shift of present state of Madrasa education of the country from orthodoxy to Quaranic Islam is a must.

    (Md. Anwarul Kabir is an educationalist and a freelance writer. He can be reached at kabiranwar@yahoo.com)

    http://mukto-mona.com/wordpress/?p=210

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 6:14 am Aamir Mughal, I asked you what was the opinion of Prophet Muhammad SAW?
    —————————-

    My knowledge in Islam, Quran and Hadith is very poor, please enlighten all of us.

  • Aamir Mughal writes;
    “1.In my humble opinion “separation of religion form the function of state”
    Did I ask your humble opinion? Absolutely not, therefore, instead of accusing me of not reading, you should get your glasses on, read properly and then answer my questions in honest and straight forward way. You have to state the definitions of Secularism and then prove that in Islam secularism is permitted because the Holy Quran teaches us “the separation of religion and state”.
    For the interpretations of the Holy Quran and the verses of the Holy Quran I am repeatedly asking you to provide the understandings, practices and advice of Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    Until now you have failed to either give me the definitions with valid arguments or produce the evidence from the Holy Quran and interpretations by Prophet Muhammad SAW of those verses.

    You made the bold statement “separation of religion and state” you defend it. Don’t ask me the question; I have not declared it boldly.

    Instead of answering you have stated “My knowledge in Islam, Quran and Hadith is very poor, please enlighten all of us.”

    If this is the case, then why you guys are making the lofty proclamations? Why are you trying to prove that you have love for Islam in your hearts? Why don’t you just say, you don’t believe in religion and move on? I warned you I am not going to make your case for you.

    If you are unwilling, unable to produce the evidence and the interpretations by Prophet Muhammad SAW, then just accept your shortcomings. Accept that you have not a clue, and your proclamations are false.

    Simple, isn’t it?

    You should never forget your party had it easy; the TV presenters of Pakistani channels are not very professional, not yet anyway. I can say categorically the criminal crooks like Khosa, Baber Awan, Faisal and Kaira had it easy, very easy indeed.

    On the surface, it appears your party is full of criminal crooks from top to bottom. I am here to question you and the policies and practices of your party. Expect me to take up on each and every one of you, one by one, topic by topic.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 7:02 am Aamir Mughal writes;
    You have to state the definitions of Secularism and then prove that in Islam secularism is permitted because the Holy Quran teaches us “the separation of religion and state”.

    crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 7:02 I am here to question you and the policies and practices of your party. Expect me to take up on each and every one of you, one by one, topic by topic.
    ===========================

    Answer for Query number 1 – We have very poor knowledge of Quran and Haidth, enlighten us all because you have yourself said “I am here to question you and the policies and practices of your party. “

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 7:02 am Aamir Mughal writes; I am repeatedly asking you to provide the understandings, practices and advice of Prophet Muhammad SAW.
    ==================
    Please help “party full of criminal crooks from top to bottom” regarding Islam by enlighting all of us through Quran and Hadith.

  • That’s settle it then, you have absolutely no love for Islam in your heart. You don’t have the knowledge of the religion of Islam which you proclaim you do not oppose. You say you want separation of religion and state, and want Pakistan to be a secular state.

    But you cannot define “secularism” nor can you prove the concept of “separation of religion and state” from the Holy Quran according to the understandings, interpretations of the verses of Holy Quran by Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    You tried to change the directions of this thread by posting information about irrelevant people but you despite your best efforts couldn’t answer my questions. Instead of you making your case to follow up on your bold claims, wanted me to make your case. In other words, you are clueless on how to defend and explain your own mission statements.

    The author of this thread started this thread with these comments

    “Lately it has been suggested by a few commentators on this blog, forum and elsewhere that the LUBP is a blog critical of Islam (or religion, in general), and has a la-deen (wrong translation of secular) orientation.”

    But she also failed to provide the definition of secularism. She didn’t give us the clues about the real translations, meanings and definitions of the word “Secularism”. Nor she provided any justifications for the use of the slogan “separation of religion and state”. She wrote it is wrong translation to call Secularism La-Deen, but failed to provide any arguments to refute the allegations that atheism should not be mixed with or confused with the word “Secularism”. If it is not Atheism then it has to be Theism, in that case, it has to be Islamic theism, because PPP is ruling Party of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

    She falsely claims that her job is done after providing links to few articles on Islam from the archives.

    My job is done for this thread, I move on. Shame on the authors here, they can not substantiate their own writings and claims in coherent way. If they are so helpless to defend their own writings, then I suggest they should stop writing altogether.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 9:48 am That’s settle it then, you have absolutely no love for Islam in your heart.
    ================

    What is in Heart is only known to Allah and if that doesn’t satisfy then read this:

    Whoever offers prayers as we do and turns his face to our Qiblah and eats the animal slaughtered by us, he is a Muslim for whom is the covenant of Allah and the covenant of the Messenger of Allah; so do not violate Allah’s covenant.” [Sahih Bukhari]

    “Ibn Umar related that the Holy Prophet said: If a Muslim calls another kafir, then if he is a kafir let it be so; otherwise, he [the caller] is himself a kafir.”(Sunnan Abu Dawood)

    “Abu Zarr reported that the Holy Prophet said: No man accuses another man of being a sinner, or of being a kafir, but it reflects back on him if the other is not as he called him.”(Bukhari)

    “Withhold [your tongues] from those who say `There is no god but Allah’ — do not call them kafir. Whoever calls a reciter of `There is no god but Allah’ as a kafir, is nearer to being a kafir himself.” (Tabarani, reported from Abdullah Ibn Omar)

    If the above Hadiths do not satisfy then read this!

    Usaamah bin Zaid reported,

    “Allaah’s Messenger sent us towards Al-Huruqa, and in the morning we attacked them and defeated them. I and an Ansari man followed a man from among them and when we overwhelmed him, he said, “La ilaha illal-Lah.” On hearing that, the Ansari man stopped, but I killed him by stabbing him with my spear. When we returned, the Prophet (sal-Allaahu `alayhe wa sallam) came to know about that and he said:

    “O Usaamah! Did you kill him after he had said “La ilaha ilal-Lah?” I said, “But he said so only to save himself.” He kept on repeating that so often that I wished I had not embraced Islaam before that day. [Agreed upon, and this is the wording of Bukhari]

    and in another version in Sahih Muslim about the same incident:

    “Did you tear open his heart to see what was in it?” [Muslim]

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 9:48 am That’s settle it then, you have absolutely no love for Islam in your heart. You don’t have the knowledge of the religion of Islam – My job is done for this thread, I move on.
    —————————–

    Thanks for your concern for Islam and now start worrying about your own safety in the life hereafter, read…

    أَلَّا تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى
    وَأَن لَّيْسَ لِلْإِنسَانِ إِلَّا مَا سَعَى
    وَأَنَّ سَعْيَهُ سَوْفَ يُرَى
    ثُمَّ يُجْزَاهُ الْجَزَاء الْأَوْفَى

    That no laden one shall bear another’s load, And that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, And that his effort will be seen. And afterward he will be repaid for it with fullest payment; [Quran AN-NAJM (THE STAR) Chapter 53: Verse 38 to 41]

    قُلْ أَغَيْرَ اللّهِ أَبْغِي رَبًّا وَهُوَ رَبُّ كُلِّ شَيْءٍ وَلاَ تَكْسِبُ كُلُّ نَفْسٍ إِلاَّ عَلَيْهَا وَلاَ تَزِرُ وَازِرَةٌ وِزْرَ أُخْرَى ثُمَّ إِلَى رَبِّكُم مَّرْجِعُكُمْ فَيُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ

    Say: Shall I seek another than Allah for Lord, when He is Lord of all things? Each soul earneth only on its own account, nor doth any laden bear another’s load. Then unto your Lord is your return and He will tell you that wherein ye differed. [Quran AL-ANAAM (CATTLE, LIVESTOCK) Chapter 6: Verse 164]

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 9:48 am But you cannot define “secularism” nor can you prove the concept of “separation of religion and state” from the Holy Quran according to the understandings, interpretations of the verses of Holy Quran by Prophet Muhammad SAW.
    ====================

  • Crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 9:48 am But you cannot define “secularism” nor can you prove the concept of “separation of religion and state” from the Holy Quran according to the understandings, interpretations of the verses of Holy Quran by Prophet Muhammad SAW.
    =====================
    Can you prove the Eid Milad un Nabi and several other such acts from Holy Quran and if not then try to convince over whelming majority of Pakistanis to not to celebrate such “Mela” and see what happens.

  • Aamir Mughal,

    You demonstrated full well what is fundamentally wrong with your PPP. It should be called “Pagal People’s Party”.

    You also demonstrated wonderfully why your party is so dishonest in their acts and in their proclamations. As I said on other thread, your corrupt leaders would have been banged in the cells in any proper and honest democracy.

    You are fakes, in what you do. You have no morals, no principles, no intelligence, no respect for rule of Law and Laws of the Land, no respect for your religion, no respect for human values, not even respect and love for your country.

    You would do anything to claim sham and false Democracy, to hide the loot, frauds, deceptions and lies of your ruling elites.

    I can only see darkness for Pakistan while you are in power. There is no hope at all for the common people of Pakistan if your thieves are in power.

    After failing miserably you are once again paddling same lies by brining un-connected and irrelevant issues in to the discussion. You have already conceded your inability to explain and answers the questions asked. I will not insist anymore, and move on.

  • crankthatskunk says: – July 27, 2010 at 10:42 am Aamir Mughal,
    You demonstrated full well what is fundamentally wrong with your PPP. It should be called “Pagal People’s Party”. You also demonstrated wonderfully why your party is so dishonest in their acts and in their proclamations. You are fakes, in what you do. You have no morals, no principles, no intelligence, no respect for rule of Law and Laws of the Land, no respect for your religion, no respect for human values, not even respect and love for your country. I will not insist anymore, and move on.
    ==========================

    No Sir,

    Don’t leave us amongst the Wolves and do your Islamic Duty of Preaching and preach us about Islam and Five Pillars of Islam and tell us about the Branches of Faith so to enable us to get Paradise in the life hereafter.

  • crankthatskunk, I initially agreed with some of your points because I also think the PPP isn’t a fully secular party. It’s caught between two worlds. Just reading their manifesto shows how much they integrate Islam into their policies, which is definitely not fully secular. However, most of your criticisms make no sense because LUBP is not the PPP, it’s a blog.

    But since then you have gone off the deep end.

    “2- What were the point of views and practices adopted by Prophet Muhammad SAW for your slogan; separation of religion and state?”

    Doesn’t matter. I doubt Muhammad even knew the concept of secularism. If he saw how much fighting there would be in Muslim countries, maybe he would support it? This highlights the strength of secularism — religion can be interpreted in many ways by different people, so let the state be neutral.

    “Which prompt me to ask the questions, what is secularism?”

    “I want to know what secularism is, you should have obliged me”

    “Could you please define for me Secularism? That what I asked you to do, I will be obliged.”

    “My questions are if you failed to notice until now. 1- What are the definitions of secularism?”

    “But you cannot define “secularism””

    Holy crap are you kidding? In your first comment you QUOTED part of the article which defined secularism before you asked anybody to define it!

    If you don’t know the word secularism (oh btw, it’s when you have separation of religion and state) then you probably also don’t know the word crank, an even more obscure word, which is really funny. By the way, did I forget to answer your question about secularism (that’s separation of religion and state, fyi)? It’s separation of religion and state (aka secularism). I know there’s something you asked like 5 times in the same thread, ignoring all the answers.. some definition of something.. wasn’t it something about separation of religion and state (i.e. secularism), the concept we call secularism (in other words, separation of religion and state)?

    Maybe some real-world analogies would help you out.

    You know like when you’re at a party, and you get a nice cup full of ice, and you add alcohol to it, and the ice melts and your drink gets all nasty? (You might not know that, take my word for it.) That’s like secularism but the opposite. In secularism, you don’t mix religion and the state.

    Have you ever accidentally spilled something on your shirt and you had a stain? And then you use something like laundry detergent to separate the stain from the shirt? That’s like secularism, but with state and religion.

  • Jon,

    Well, I didn’t provide the definitions of Secularism, I quoted from the thread. It is not my job, but yours. You are on the same misleading path, which is already tested by others. I am still waiting for the answers of my questions. Remember, Secularism has meanings behind it, just saying “separation of religion and state” is not enough and in fact is a cope out. You can keep coping out, it is down to you. But then you would prove that it is an empty rhetoric and PPP is in fact against the religion of Islam. It is not me but the creators (s) of this blog have associated themselves to the PPP.

    I didn’t ask the writer of this thread to select this topic to show their love and respect for Islam. She should justify it. I have already given her and all of you the option, just admit you hate religion and have nothing to do with it and move on. I have absolutely no problem with it. But be clear about what you stand for. If you use the name of religion without justifying your claims, then I have issue with your approach.

    “Doesn’t matter. I doubt Muhammad even knew the concept of secularism. If he saw how much fighting there would be in Muslim countries, maybe he would support it? This highlights the strength of secularism — religion can be interpreted in many ways by different people, so let the state be neutral.”

    The way you addressed Prophet Muhammad SAW shows very clearly you have no love and respect for our beloved Prophet SAW. You may be a Christians or an atheist, it does not matter, in that case you would be a minority. And as first principle of democracy, you shouldn’t be making the comments on what and what not the majority decide about how to run their country. I hope you get my drift.

    I hope you will not repeat this insult to our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW and do not say that he SAW didn’t know, or if he SAW knew. He SAW has left us with very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue. I have repeatedly asked for these guidance but still waiting for the proper answer.

    It is the responsibility of the one who made the claim, not mine. Please don’t waste my valuable time with frivolous attempts. My questions are very very clear indeed, answer them if you can, otherwise admit, you don’t have answers. Enough said.

  • “Remember, Secularism has meanings behind it, just saying “separation of religion and state” is not enough and in fact is a cope out.”

    No, that is enough. That’s what secularism means. Since you admit yourself that you need the word defined for you, you are not qualified to say whether it’s enough. If you need clarification, you need to ask more specific questions, not just keep repeating yourself. Nobody can read your mind.

    “You can keep coping out, it is down to you. But then you would prove that it is an empty rhetoric and PPP is in fact against the religion of Islam.”

    Every secular party should be against Islam in government by definition.

    “And as first principle of democracy, you shouldn’t be making the comments on what and what not the majority decide about how to run their country. I hope you get my drift.”

    lol oh yeah. You don’t have a clue about democracy, that’s clear enough.

    Wait, wait. Let me borrow your “argument” technique briefly.

    Democracy??? What is democracy? What is the meaning behind democracy? You talk about principles of democracy, I demand that you define it. And no simplistic dictionary definitions, I demand that you define democracy using passages from Sun Tzu’s Art of War. Otherwise admit you know nothing.

    “I hope you will not repeat this insult to our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW and do not say that he SAW didn’t know, or if he SAW knew.”

    I thought Muslims believe Mohammed was illiterate, hence the miracle of the Koran. Why is it offensive to say he didn’t know big words like democracy or secularism? He didn’t even know how to read and write. It’s highly likely that Mohammed lacked the education and general knowledge to talk about such concepts considering he couldn’t read.

    “He SAW has left us with very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue. I have repeatedly asked for these guidance but still waiting for the proper answer.”

    Ohhh, you are asking for Mohammed’s guidelines on secularism and democracy and all that, not the real definitions? But if he didn’t know or understand those concepts, how will you ever get the answers?

    “It is the responsibility of the one who made the claim, not mine.”

    I agree. So when are you going to fulfill your responsibility for the claims you made? For instance you said “He SAW has left us with very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue” but I don’t believe you. Well, out with it, fulfill your duty and give me those clear guidelines and guidance. Earlier you talked about democratic principles, I’m waiting for you to fulfill your responsibility in backing up your claim on that too.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 27, 2010 at 1:25 pm Jon, He SAW has left us with very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue. I have repeatedly asked for these guidance but still waiting for the proper answer
    ================
    That’s why I am asking that we don’t know so please give us the guideline given in Quran and Hadith.

  • @crankthatskunk

    According to you: “He SAW has left us with very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue.”

    As a good Muslim, you should consider Aamir Mughal’s request, and enlighten him (and others) about the Prophet’s (SAW) very clear guidelines and guidance on this issue.

    Thank you.

  • To all the PPP supporters who are trying to avoid the issues. Focus on the facts;

    Sarah Khan writes in the introductions;

    “Lately it has been suggested by a few commentators on this blog, forum and elsewhere that the LUBP is a blog critical of Islam (or religion, in general), and has a la-deen (wrong translation of secular) orientation.
    Nothing could be further from truth.”
    It is her pronouncement that nothing could be further from the truth, i.e. the LUBP is not against Islam and not a La-Deen oriented blog. Then she writes;
    “While the majority of us are proponents of secularism (i.e., separation of religion and state),”

    A- She is categorically saying the suggestions that this blog is critical of Islam are false.

    B- She said nothing could be further from the truth, which categorically implies that this blog is not critical of Islam and not irreligious (la-deen) or against the religion.

    C- But the majority of you are proponents of secularism i.e. want to keep the religion and state separate.

    I hope every one of you get it. If you don’t get it until now, then there is nothing I can do. Onus is on Sarah to provide justifications of her claims and anyone of you who want to have issue with my questioning of her statement.

    She or anyone else who is interested should provide;

    1- Evidence that this blog is not against the religion and not irreligious blog i.e. la-deen.

    2- Explain what does she mean by secularism i.e. separation of religion and state in the context of Pakistan.
    Is this too much of asking, to explain your statement and prove you are not against the religion of Islam which is the religion of the majority of Pakistanis. Everyone should resist the temptation to ask me the questions, I am not obliged to produce any definitions or explanations, I did not make the claims, I just want to make sure that the claims made are based on facts rather than misrepresentation of the policies and practices of this blog.

    If Sarah and others fail to clarify and explain both terms and their claims wiz a wiz Pakistan, then she and others should accept that this blog is against the religion and have nothing to do with the religion of the majority of the Pakistanis. I have absolutely no problem with it. But it is my right to pose the questions and insist on honest answers.

    You should not forget that she started the thread with asserting that the accusations are levelled against this blog. Those allegations were not made by me. She should explain who made the accusations. My point is simple, either she refute those allegations with valid arguments and proofs and defend her statements. In the event of her failure to explain and defend, the allegations which she herself listed stand valid and accurate and should prove that this blog is against the religion and a la-deen blog, according to her own terminology.

    I also suggest that those who are asking me to explain Islamic position on separation of religion and state should resist their temptations to ask me the questions. I didn’t use the term Sarah did, naturally she should explain it. Or she could withdraw her claims. But she said majority of the members on this blog are proponents of secularism, so you are in it, if you like it or not.

    Mr. Nishapuri, if Aamir does not know the meanings of the word secularism and Islamic position on separation of religion and state, he should get the guidance from Sarah Khan after all she made the bold claims, I have absolutely no compulsion to give you any information or justifications. When are you going (all of you) to act rationally and explain her statement and policies of your blog?

    I am waiting.

  • Jon,
    “No, that is enough. That’s what secularism means. Since you admit yourself that you need the word defined for you, you are not qualified to say whether it’s enough. If you need clarification, you need to ask more specific questions, not just keep repeating yourself. Nobody can read your mind.”
    I can only ask further pointed questions when I get the answer to my first question, what is Secularism?
    “Every secular party should be against Islam in government by definition.”
    Thank you for making my point, that’s what I said, she should accept the allegations and admit this blog is against the Islam and move on. This blog consist of supporters of PPP. Sarah said, majority of you are Secular, i.e. believe in separation of religion and state. Now you saying by definition every secular party should be against Islam.
    Party is consisting of its members and supporters, therefore, those who are members and supporters of the party; in this case PPP should be against the religion of Islam in Government.
    Would you please ask her to change her statement and accept that this blog is representing the Government of PPP as its supporters and should accept that this blog is against Islam in the Government and its affairs?
    1. lol oh yeah. You don’t have a clue about democracy, that’s clear enough.
    Ok, if I don’t have a clue, then surely you do, don’t you? Tell me what is democracy for you? Now don’t run away from it, because I will hold you responsible for your own words.
    “I thought Muslims believe Mohammed was illiterate, hence the miracle of the Koran. Why is it offensive to say he didn’t know big words like democracy or secularism? He didn’t even know how to read and write. It’s highly likely that Mohammed lacked the education and general knowledge to talk about such concepts considering he couldn’t read.”
    I told you not to repeat the insults to our beloved Prophet SAW again, but you didn’t pay attention to my request. Do it again and I will take issues with you big time.
    I am not worried about your stupid comments about our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW, I can take care of you and likes of you whichever way you want, if you are a Christian, atheists or anything else. You pose absolutely no problems and challenges for me. I am consistently trying to focus everyone’s attention to the purpose of this thread. Remember it wasn’t opened by me.
    Do you realize by showing this disrespect, you are making true the allegations by your opponents that this blog indeed is against Islam. When the participants and supporters of PPP cannot respect Prophet Muhammad SAW, who is hold dear by majority of Pakistanis, then what else is considered against Islam?
    Ohhh, you are asking for Mohammed’s guidelines on secularism and democracy and all that, not the real definitions? But if he didn’t know or understand those concepts, how will you ever get the answers?
    Once again your conjecture is very easy for me to answer, but like I said repeatedly I didn’t start this thread and claim this blog is not against Islam. But I can only thank you for proving Sarah’s claims false. Keep doing it, you just making my point.
    I will make presentations of my claims when Sarah or anyone of you provides justifications and prove of your claims that this blog is not against the religion of Islam. At the moment, there is nothing any one of you has answered. Until then there are absolutely no compulsion on me.

  • Sarah Khan
    Your own colleague is proving your claims false, are you going to answer him and show us all that this blog is not against Islam? Or are you going to accept that the allegations against this blog are true and you are against Islam and are enemies of Islam?

  • @crankthatskunk

    You live in fools’ paradise. Your case is as convincing as that of Imran Khan, Mullah Omar, Munawar Hassan and General Hamid Gul!

    You are stubbornly repeating the same set of questions which have been already answered in the present article, and also have been adequately explained by other posters in this thread. Did you read?

    While, as I earlier explained, in view of your hate speech against our fellow Pakistani brothers and sisters, the Ahmadi community, I am averse to conversation with you, I however notice with amusement you are trying very hard to evade some very relevant questions asked by other posters in this thread!

    Do some amr bil maroof to us; be a good Muslim if you are one!

    Oh btw you don’t believe in sects. Don’t you? How do you offer your prayer, for example? Do you keep your arms to the side or you fold them? Do you say Aameen bil jahr (loudly) or bil ikhfa (silently)? Are you a muqallid or ghair muqallid?

    Now, run as fast as you can!

  • Sarah Khan and others who are trying vociferously to claim that they and this blog are not against Islam, should read what Jon has written on your own blog;

    “Jon
    lol super soldier, you are hopeless. Don’t you understand that Christianity and Islam are different religions? You can’t learn a single thing about Christianity by reading the Koran.

    You know nothing about Christianity and you are too enthralled by Islam to even understand that other religions have different truths than your own religion. Here, try this, the TRUTH about Islam: Mohammed was a false prophet, Allah was a pagan moon god, the Koran is a book of lies inspired by Satan. Sound familiar? That’s what happens when you “analyze” a religion from the premises of a different religion. “

    This man is representing your blog on this thread to prove your blog and you as a group are not against Islam. Do I need to say more?

    Jon,

    I have read your stupid comments about Prophet Muhammad SAW and laughed at level of your ignorance and hatred for Islam and our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    Obviously you are a Christian, I give you this challenge, if you can prove to me that Christianity is true, I will give up writing.

    How this challenge does sounds to you?

    Moron, you are nothing but an inflated egoistic fool.

  • Sarah Khan,

    “You live in fools’ paradise. Your case is as convincing as that of Imran Khan, Mullah Omar, Munawar Hassan and General Hamid Gul!”

    Wow, you are rattled; these are your own claims my dear, respond to my questions or admit you are against Islam. Why it is so difficult for you?

    You are not paying attention; I have said repeatedly none of you can divert my attention from the real issues and the purpose of different threads, no matter how many personal insults you throw, I will treat them as rumblings of mad and dishonest people.

    “You are stubbornly repeating the same set of questions which have been already answered in the present article, and also have been adequately explained by other posters in this thread. Did you read?”

    It is because you are so absurdly inept to make your own case.

    “While, as I earlier explained, in view of your hate speech against our fellow Pakistani brothers and sisters, the Ahmadi community, I am averse to conversation with you, I however notice with amusement you are trying very hard to evade some very relevant questions asked by other posters in this thread!”

    Once again this is your conjecture and stupid comments, you are invited to defend them and their teachings on my blog or other forums I participate. This is not the place for it. You should mind what you write, it is Mirza Kazzab who has written hate speech against Muslims, Prophet Muhammad SAW and Prophet Isa As; he has called all the Muslims Kaffirs if they don’t believe in his lies. I am only exposing his lies and that’s of his supporters, this is my right. They can defend him, if they are capable of. They are given full opportunities but they are woefully inept to defend the writings of Mirza. Everything I write, I write by providing undeniable evidence. And unlike you I am capable of defending what I write against Mirza.

    You are woefully inept to defend your own writings. Who is stupid, I will show you, Inshallah. First you should be more mindful of making your own case and defending your claims or withdrawing them.
    I am purposefully trying not to turn this thread in to discussion on religion or religious teachings, despite best efforts of the defenders.

    I have already done my job and exposed your lies, now you are showing your contempt for the Muslims of Pakistan, the majority, by taking side with Qadianis. I will expose you like you have never seen before, first let me have fun.

    “Oh btw you don’t believe in sects. Don’t you? How do you offer your prayer, for example? Do you keep your arms to the side or you fold them? Do you say Aameen bil jahr (loudly) or bil ikhfa (silently)? Are you a muqallid or ghair muqallid?”
    “Now, run as fast as you can!”

    It seems you have lost your mind completely. It is not my belief, it is the decree of the Holy Quran; you are just showing your ignorance.
    If ignorant like you make me run from the teachings of Islam then I would have pack up writing long time ago. Your beloved Qadianis have tried this for over 3 years by producing all kind of lies and weird explanations to defend Mirza but failed. Now best of them run as fast as they could if they see my presence, even those who are the official of this cult. I have been requesting the Lahori Qadianis for months to issue me a court writ and see what will happen. You can try on their behalf if you ever so wish.
    I am here with the purpose to destroy your lies, there is only one way to counter my posts, you be constructive and respond in scholarly and rational way. Enough said, now get on with defending your claims.

    If you thinking you going to get away from your lies then you are mistaken big time. Why don’t you accept you are in fact against the religion of Islam? You have been given opportunities to defend your claims but you are failing miserably; don’t blame others for your shortcomings.

    Do the rightful; withdraw your claims, end of the matter.

  • crankthatskunk,

    “Ok, if I don’t have a clue, then surely you do, don’t you? Tell me what is democracy for you? Now don’t run away from it, because I will hold you responsible for your own words.”

    You should resist the temptation to ask me the questions, I am not obliged to produce any definitions or explanations, I did not make the claims, I just want to make sure that the claims made are based on facts. You said “And as first principle of democracy, you shouldn’t be making the comments on what and what not the majority decide about how to run their country.”

    Back up your claims with facts. I will hold you responsible for your own words, crankthatskunk.

    “I am not worried about your stupid comments about our beloved Prophet Muhammad SAW, I can take care of you and likes of you whichever way you want”

    Seems like you are worried because you keep bringing it up every time I say something about Mohammed or Muhammad or whatever (why don’t you guys have a consistent spelling, surely he’d be offended by that). I understand though. You feel weak and powerless and sooo angry that you can’t control the Internet, but you also can’t give it up.

    “Do you realize by showing this disrespect, you are making true the allegations by your opponents that this blog indeed is against Islam.”

    Doesn’t that mean that by publishing your comments the blog is pro Islam? Boy, your arguments make no sense.

    “Obviously you are a Christian, I give you this challenge, if you can prove to me that Christianity is true, I will give up writing.

    How this challenge does sounds to you?”

    I would hate for you to have to give up writing. Then again, you are not a man of your word so I’m sure you would not actually give it up. You already said yesterday “My job is done for this thread, I move on.” but you’re still here today.. typical..

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 6:25 am Mr. Nishapuri, if Aamir does not know the meanings of the word secularism and Islamic position on separation of religion and state, he should get the guidance from Sarah Khan
    ======================
    No Sir, I am waiting for a help from good momin [you] TO SAVE ME I AM AMONGST WOLVES

  • “Seems like you are worried because you keep bringing it up every time I say something about Mohammed or Muhammad or whatever (why don’t you guys have a consistent spelling, surely he’d be offended by that). I understand though. You feel weak and powerless and sooo angry that you can’t control the Internet, but you also can’t give it up.”

    I have already said foolish people don’t worry me at all, if I was worried I wouldn’t have issued you a challenge. Take up my challenge and everyone will find out who is weak and powerless.

    I tell you a little story, over 6 years ago, I went to meet a Bishop in London, I respectfully asked him few questions on the nature of Jesus according to the Christians. Upon his standard answers I referred him to few quotes from the Bible. After reading those quotes, I asked him some more pointed questions.
    Bishop looked at me, asked me “Son how much do you know about Christianity” to this I answered, a lot. He said, ok leave me your number, I will come back to you with the answers. I am waiting for 6 years; he never came back to me.

    If you think you are capable of answering my questions and are more qualified and knowledgeable than the Bishop then take up my challenge and see the results. I can promise, you will be spent before passing the book of Genesis. Or proving the nature of Jesus to me from the Bible.

    Don’t make claims you can not substantiate. Do you realize you have already destroyed the claims of this blog that it is not against the religion of Islam? Don’t bother me again, I have already shown conclusively that you are in fact against the religion of Islam and an Enemy of Muslims and Islam, and a blasphemer against Prophet Muhammad SAW.

    You have put Sarah Khan in even more trouble to justify her claims. I am just amazed; she wrote this article to prove that PPP and its supporters are not against the religion of Islam, but they are represented by you, who is writing blasphemy against Prophet Muhammad SAW on the thread, which supposed to prove otherwise. Stupid is what stupid does.

    Contrary to your perceptions, instead of getting worried from your moronic comments I am going to use them as evidence against your blog for the purpose of this thread.

    “I would hate for you to have to give up writing. Then again, you are not a man of your word so I’m sure you would not actually give it up. You already said yesterday “My job is done for this thread, I move on.” but you’re still here today.. typical..”

    Yeah, my job would have been done, if you and others didn’t come up with further non-sense. If I didn’t respond to your crap, you would have claim victory and claim you have proven that this blog is not against Islam. Nothing could be further from the truth, you all are showing conclusively that you in fact are against the religion of Islam and are hardened enemies of Islam. Therefore, I have to respond just to wipe the smiles of your faces.

    If you think, there is anything more unIslamic then to attack and blaspheme against Prophet Muhammad SAW then you really need your head examined.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 7:03 am Sarah Khan Your own colleague is proving your claims false,
    ====================
    That is called “Difference of Opinion” in any Healthy Debate amongst those who follow Secular Values.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 8:32 am Sarah Khan, Why don’t you accept you are in fact against the religion of Islam?
    ========================

    Prove the Disbelief with evidence as to which Pillar of Islam is denied on this blog.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 10:43 am – I tell you a little story, over 6 years ago, I went to meet a Bishop in London, I respectfully asked him few questions on the nature of Jesus according to the Christians. Upon his standard answers I referred him to few quotes from the Bible. After reading those quotes, I asked him some more pointed questions. Bishop looked at me, asked me “Son how much do you know about Christianity” to this I answered, a lot. He said, ok leave me your number, I will come back to you with the answers. I am waiting for 6 years; he never came back to me.
    ====================================
    Why should we believe you? Provide the reference that it happened.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 10:43 am – I tell you a little story, over 6 years ago, I went to meet a Bishop in London, I respectfully asked him few questions on the nature of Jesus according to the Christians. Upon his standard answers I referred him to few quotes from the Bible. After reading those quotes, I asked him some more pointed questions. Bishop looked at me, asked me “Son how much do you know about Christianity” to this I answered, a lot. He said, ok leave me your number, I will come back to you with the answers. I am waiting for 6 years; he never came back to me.
    =========================

    What question you asked from the Bishop about Prophet Jesus [PBUH] , please tell us so to enable ourselves from False Beliefs.

    Note: You forgot to write PBUH with the name of Prophet Jesus (PBUH)]

  • Cranktheskunk,

    you seem to have issues with basic logic. By your logic, since one of our forum commentators made a remark that (taken out of context) would appear to be blasphemous, LUBP supports blasphemy. By that same logic, by allowing your anti-Ahmadi comments, LUBP supports your position on Ahmadis and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed. By allowing comments by those who support Afghan Taliban, LUBP supports Afghan Taliban. By allowing comments by those who support Jamaat-e-Islami, LUBP supports Jamaat-e-Islami. By allowing comments by those who bash Zardari, LUBP hates Zardari. You get the problem with your logic, I hope.

  • Poor crankthatskunk, lol

    “Take up my challenge and everyone will find out who is weak and powerless.”

    But we already know you’re weak and powerless so what’s the point? You admitted it yourself:

    “Yeah, my job would have been done, if you and others didn’t come up with further non-sense. If I didn’t respond to your crap, you would have claim victory and claim you have proven that this blog is not against Islam.”

    That’s right, I am your master. Get used to it. You can’t leave this thread until I give you permission. If you leave without permission, then you lose everything and I win. See how weak you are?

    “Bishop looked at me, asked me “Son how much do you know about Christianity” to this I answered, a lot. He said, ok leave me your number, I will come back to you with the answers. I am waiting for 6 years; he never came back to me.”

    lol that’s the oldest trick in the book. Do you really not understand what he did? He saw how illogical and deluded you are and said “no point, just get rid of this nut before he gets out his suicide jacket.” There’s really no point in having a serious discussion with someone like you. Honestly. The only reason I’m replying to you is for my own pleasure. It’s funny to see what silly arguments you can come up with.

    “Don’t make claims you can not substantiate.”

    Great advice! Still waiting for your definition of democracy and the meaning of democracy. I will hold you to your obligation to argue from facts.

  • Aamir Mughal

    Quote “That is called “Difference of Opinion” in any Healthy Debate amongst those who follow Secular Values.” UnQuote.

    What did you say? Thank God, I question the writer of this thread, now true level of your animosity to Islam is coming to fore.

    This is what Jon has written:

    Quote:”
    1. Doesn’t matter. I doubt Muhammad even knew the concept of secularism. If he saw how much fighting there would be in Muslim countries, maybe he would support it? This highlights the strength of secularism — religion can be interpreted in many ways by different people, so let the state be neutral.

    2. I thought Muslims believe Mohammed was illiterate, hence the miracle of the Koran. Why is it offensive to say he didn’t know big words like democracy or secularism? He didn’t even know how to read and write. It’s highly likely that Mohammed lacked the education and general knowledge to talk about such concepts considering he couldn’t read.

    3. Ohhh, you are asking for Mohammed’s guidelines on secularism and democracy and all that, not the real definitions? But if he didn’t know or understand those concepts, how will you ever get the answers?

    4- lol super soldier, you are hopeless. Don’t you understand that Christianity and Islam are different religions? You can’t learn a single thing about Christianity by reading the Koran.

    You know nothing about Christianity and you are too enthralled by Islam to even understand that other religions have different truths than your own religion. Here, try this, the TRUTH about Islam: Mohammed was a false prophet, Allah was a pagan moon god, the Koran is a book of lies inspired by Satan. Sound familiar? That’s what happens when you “analyze” a religion from the premises of a different religion. “UnQuote.

    And you call this difference of opinion? These are your proofs of you not against the religion of Islam?

    After reading these blasphemous paragraphs against Prophet Muhammad SAW, can you justify and defend the purpose of this thread and claims by Sarah Khan?

    Quote “Lately it has been suggested by a few commentators on this blog, forum and elsewhere that the LUBP is a blog critical of Islam (or religion, in general), and has a la-deen (wrong translation of secular) orientation.”
    Nothing could be further from truth.” UnQuote.

    If you can, then let me know, if you don’t I have saved the whole thread with proofs and will be writing an article and forwarding it to the major newspapers in Pakistan. I am sure you will be able to defend these blasphemies as difference of opinion to ordinary Pakistani Muslims and show it as proofs for your love for Islam and that your agenda is not to spread la-deeniat. Let the masses decide if you are supporting the cause of Islam or are you against the religion of Islam.

    Quote “Prove the Disbelief with evidence as to which Pillar of Islam is denied on this blog.” UnQuote.

    You really are an insane fool. What can I say to an ignorant like you, read the Holy Quran and learn what is the importance of Prophet Muhammad SAW for the Muslims and for their faith. You are fool of highest order to think that Pillars of Islam are more important compare to the respect of and obedience to Prophet SAW.

    Laila Ebadi,
    Quote. “you seem to have issues with basic logic. By your logic, since one of our forum commentators made a remark that (taken out of context) would appear to be blasphemous, LUBP supports blasphemy. By that same logic, by allowing your anti-Ahmadi comments, LUBP supports your position on Ahmadis and Mirza Ghulam Ahmed.” UnQuote.

    I don’t have issues with basic logic, I will accept the logic if you provide any. It is one of your supporters who have made these claims, and she is inept to justify her claims. Because she said majority of you believe in secularism i.e. separation of religion and state, according to her. Then all of you are in this dilemma.

    I am simply asking what secularism is and what do you mean by separation of religion and state in Pakistani context? But none of you could give any reasonable answers. You are showing your dishonesty to say the comments are taken out of context, please see above four paragraphs and then explain me how they are taken out of context?

    You are purposefully spreading false information, on this blog I did not provide any views on Qadianis it is your colleague Sarah who quoted it from my blog. You should get your facts right before making stupid comments.

    I am just flabbergasted at your desperations and inability to defend the bold claim Sarah had made. I am going to destroy your false claims by using your own comments in an article. At the moment I am just trying to comprehend the mental level of the supporters of PPP, who wants to build Pakistan, by perpetrating lies and supporting looting and corruption and by accepting blasphemous and insulting comments against Prophet Muhammad SAW including calling him a false prophet, Quran inspired by Satan (nauzobillah) as difference of opinion.

    Shame is too little a word to use for you and it becomes meaningless for the supporters of PPP.

  • Quote “That’s right, I am your master. Get used to it. You can’t leave this thread until I give you permission. If you leave without permission, then you lose everything and I win. See how weak you are?” unquote

    Keep dreaming, I can only said, this blog deserves you. You have already provided me the material which is irrefutable evidence; you can not serve any other purpose.

    Quote “lol that’s the oldest trick in the book. Do you really not understand what he did? He saw how illogical and deluded you are and said “no point, just get rid of this nut before he gets out his suicide jacket.” There’s really no point in having a serious discussion with someone like you. Honestly. The only reason I’m replying to you is for my own pleasure. It’s funny to see what silly arguments you can come up with.” unquote

    Once again fools have nothing but conjecture on their plates. Meeting lasted for over 30 minutes, and he tried all usual tricks used by Christians, but could not provide any reasonable answers. Instead he keeps getting in to deeper mire. Why don’t you take up my challenge and find out?

    Quote “Great advice! Still waiting for your definition of democracy and the meaning of democracy. I will hold you to your obligation to argue from facts.” unquote

    You waiting the definition of Democracy from me? Aren’t you the champion of Democracy? Why don’t you give me the explanations?

  • “Keep dreaming, I can only said, this blog deserves you. You have already provided me the material which is irrefutable evidence; you can not serve any other purpose.”

    Poor crankthatskunk, you’re getting upset. Watch out or you’ll get so cranky that you leave the thread and lose. Are you going to leave and lose, or stay and win for Islam? It’s up to you!

    “Once again fools have nothing but conjecture on their plates. Meeting lasted for over 30 minutes, and he tried all usual tricks used by Christians, but could not provide any reasonable answers. ”

    Hahahaha. I can imagine you following around some old guy harassing him for 30 minutes. That doesn’t make a “meeting” though. You have no credibility.

    “Why don’t you take up my challenge and find out?”

    Your challenge is too easy. For a real challenge why don’t you start a thread in the forum to prove Islam is true? Then I’ll prove you’re false.

    “You waiting the definition of Democracy from me? Aren’t you the champion of Democracy? Why don’t you give me the explanations?”

    I’m an expert on democracy and I could easily explain it but I won’t do your work for you. Still waiting. Or just admit you know nothing and we’ll move on, I’m a forgiving person.

  • [Quote]”Your challenge is too easy. For a real challenge why don’t you start a thread in the forum to prove Islam is true? Then I’ll prove you’re false.”[Unquote]

    Well, I am a proud Muslim, now go and search for Islam and Muslim hating sites, to throw your filth on Islam and Muslims, and Prophet Muhammad SAW. When I see your thread and your filth I will respond. Take up my challenge you coward. You can bring whatever you want in that debate, I will see what you can do.

    [Quote ]” I’m an expert on democracy and I could easily explain it but I won’t do your work for you. Still waiting. Or just admit you know nothing and we’ll move on, I’m a forgiving person.” [unquote]

    It is not my thread I have no compulsion to provide any clarifications. I am sure you are the master of Democracy in similar way you are master of Secularism and separation of religion and state. We can not say anything until and unless you provide proofs of your mastery. Until then, we know one thing you are filthy Muslim and Islam hater, who is proving that this site is against the interest of Muslims and Islam, contrary to the claims made in this thread. Like I said, in this thread your purpose is finished, you have provided me the opportunity to expose false claims of the authors and other supporters of PPP. I suggest you take your barking to another thread.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 1:50 pm by accepting blasphemous and insulting comments against Prophet Muhammad SAW crankthatskunk says: July 28, 2010 at 8:32 am Sarah Khan, Why don’t you accept you are in fact against the religion of Islam?
    ===================
    Prove that we committed Blasphemy and also prove that we are against Islam:

    الْبَيِّنَةُ عَلَى الْمُدَّعِى وَالْيَمِينُ عَلَى الْمُدَّعَى عَلَيْهِ

    The burden of proof is upon the plaintiff, and the oath is upon the one who is accused (Tirmidhi)

    And to help you to help us learning about Islam, you can use these websites:

    Saudi Arabia’s Religious Ministry http://www.al-islam.com/arb/
    [English version of this site is also available]

    For English http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/

  • @ crankthatskunk

    as i have said ” i smell kaffir in Mr Amir Mughal”. Welcome to the world of humanity !!

    @ Amir
    dont be afraid of the afterlife. think about it it this way ==> does your father loves you? Why is his love for you so unconditional ? why your father being a simple human being, can display such amount of love that he will love you even if you dont listen to him, you dont want to talk with him and you dont give a damn about him ? the anwer is simple. Your father will always love his son. This is called humanity. Now lets look at the al mighty al- reham ? will he love you if you dont do namaz ? will he love you if you dont say the shahada ? will he love you just for the sake of love ? or maybe you have to scratch his back so that he will scratch yours ? The creator of this universe if he exists cannot have unconditional love brother !

    As for the hindu terrorist and so on, i fully agree with you. why so i argue with you on something which is true .

  • ashvin says: July 29, 2010 at 12:12 am @ crankthatskunk as i have said ” i smell kaffir in Mr Amir Mughal”. Welcome to the world of humanity !!
    ===================
    Ashvin

    Where did you feel that I am a Kaafir? quote the post.

  • [Quote] “Prove that we committed Blasphemy and also prove that we are against Islam:” [Unquote]

    Wrong, Sarah made the claims; she said majority of you are of the same thoughts and practices. She put the burden of proofs on herself and all of you collectively who agree with her.
    I say, she couldn’t provide any justifications and proofs of her claims. Others too, despite their repeated posts and nasty personal comments, failed to provide any proofs and justifications of her or their claims.

    I on the other hand only asked for the definitions and explanations for the terms she used. But until now, Sarah or anyone else could not provide simple explanations, despite claims of mastery by few.
    On the contrary, some foolish supporters of PPP have made written statements of blasphemy against Prophet Muhammad SAW. These attacks and other proofs from this thread and the absence of any evidence to support claims of Sarah by her or others, shows very clearly that the claims and assertions made by Sarah are false. In fact the nature of the comments about Prophet Muhammad SAW by some, and then the backing up of these comments had from others, shows that this blog is definitely against the religion of Islam.

    There is no better evidence than your insistence for me to show you which pillar of Islam have you violated or now your demands to show you what blasphemy is committed on this thread.
    Both your questions show your complete lack of understanding of the religion of Islam. Similar is true about Sarah and her claims. In the absence of any reasonable attempts by any contributors and supporters of PPP on this blog, I have to conclude that neither you have any sincerity nor any credibility to either support your own claims with evidence or to understand your stance against Islam.
    I have repeatedly said I have no compulsions to provide any proofs until and unless any of you provide the definitions. I requested repeatedly to provide evidence to support the original claims by Sarah.

    When I have free time available, I will write an article with proofs and support from the Holy Quran for the blasphemies committed, post it on my sites, distribute it on other sites and blogs, pass it to the Pakistani newspapers. Let the people of Pakistan decide, if you have committed blasphemies or not and what the Laws and Constitution of Pakistan says about it.

    These were my intentions from the start when I asked the definitions from Sarah and others. I will lists the definitions commonly used for these terms and what it means wiz a wiz Pakistan and her constitution. After few responses I knew what to expect from you as collective group. As I said, no compulsions were ever on me but you had the burden to substantiate your stance and claims. But you and your colleagues had made it worst for themselves.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 29, 2010 at 6:12 am your demands to show you what blasphemy is committed on this thread. Both your questions show your complete lack of understanding of the religion of Islam.
    ====================
    That’s why I provided you the Resources of Quran and Hadith to guide us through Quran and Hadith. Post number 31 above:))

  • crankthatskunk says: July 29, 2010 at 6:12 am post it on my sites, distribute it on other sites and blogs, pass it to the Pakistani newspapers. Let the people of Pakistan decide, if you have committed blasphemies or not and what the Laws and Constitution of Pakistan says about it.
    =================
    Yes do that and also post this rather send this to Madressahs and Mawlvis as an evidence of Blasphemy: Black Magic through Holy Quran! http://chagataikhan.blogspot.com/2010/07/black-magic-through-holy-quran.html

  • Aamir Mughal,

    You are a fool of highest order; I have already guessed it after reading few of your whacky posts. Living in Jacobabad much be a stretch for you. Heat is gone to your head, you lost it big time. I suggest a prompt and immediate visit to your doctor is over due to check your mental health.

    Why you keep introducing irrelevant stuff? What other people using the Holy Quran for magic has to do with me personally?

    There are many ills in Pakistan, due to people’s ignorance and illiteracy. It could only be cure with proper educations both Islamic and general to attack and eliminate these ills.

    Education is something not very high on the priorities of your PPP. You want to keep the masses illiterate, because if they are literate and know their rights and PPP’s corruptions, then you are out of the Politics, pronto.

    When Zardari thinks and talk about education, he is thinking the education of Bilawal, how he can be educated from the looted billions from the poor of Pakistan.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 29, 2010 at 6:53 am Aamir Mughal, You are a fool of highest order; I have already guessed it after reading few of your whacky posts. Living in Jacobabad much be a stretch for you. Heat is gone to your head, you lost it big time. I suggest a prompt and immediate visit to your doctor is over due to check your mental health. Why you keep introducing irrelevant stuff? What other people using the Holy Quran for magic has to do with me personally? There are many ills in Pakistan, due to people’s ignorance and illiteracy. It could only be cure with proper educations both Islamic and general to attack and eliminate these ills.
    ====================

    The book is written on those Islamic Scholars who used Quran in Magic. Since you are expert on Quran, Hadith and raising slogan of Blasphemy so tell me who is Blasphemer.

  • crankthatskunk says: July 29, 2010 at 6:53 am Aamir There are many ills in Pakistan, due to people’s ignorance and illiteracy. It could only be cure with proper educations both Islamic and general to attack and eliminate these ills.
    =======================

    Which Islamic Education? Deobandi, Barlevi, Wahabi or Shia.

  • Aamir Mughal,

    What kind of non-sense is it? Go and raise your arguments with those who are holding the views that Quran can be use for magic (nauzobillah). Why I have to answer your irrelevant non-sense? Did I make the claim or supported it?

    You don’t know the ABC of intelligent debate or discussion, you keep bringing frivolous and irrelevant things in to this and every other thread. You need your head examine by a competent Doctor. I said a competent and proper Doctor, not a fake degree holder. Or you can go to a Doctor and let him operate on your brain. When you pass away, the Doctor can proclaim in the Court “degree is a degree if it is genuine or fake”.

    And why you bringing sects in to the discussion, when I clearly said and written, I do not believe in Sects according to the decrees in the Holy Quran. So why you keep asking me the irrelevant questions?

    Now to the proponents of “Secularism” and “separation of religion and state” should hear and see their bed fellow, he is planning to do something heinous to the Muslims around the world. Try selling his brand of “Secularism” to your constituencies in Pakistan. Good luck.

    http://edition.cnn.com/video/#/video/us/2010/07/29/ricks.burn.koran.cnn?hpt=T2

  • crankthatskunk, you are truly mad. Can you post your blog address? I’m looking forward to reading your article about this discussion. I know someone mentioned it but I can’t find it. I expect that it will be very entertaining.

  • crankthatskunk says: August 1, 2010 at 3:56 am Aamir Mughal, Why I have to answer your irrelevant non-sense?
    =====================
    Because it is a Duty [Farz] on every Muslim [you] to guide the misguided [Me and LUBP Owners, Editors, Commentators and followers] people.

  • crankthatskunk says: August 1, 2010 at 3:56 am Aamir Mughal, I do not believe in Sects according to the decrees in the Holy Quran
    =================
    Please enlighten as to where in Quran?

  • LUBP forum is an anti Islam and an anti Pakistan Forum. I pray to ALLAH for to show Nishapuri,sara Khan and Aamir Mughal the right path. JAZAKALLAH

  • saw some where the labels were glued or stuck on with doubled sided tape, says Elyce Cox, a partner of Spade we standing there peeling them off and saying, these real? And he said, that label just didn get sewn on yet. Other tipoffs are crooked or loose stitching.